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Do you believe that suffering is necessary for positive growth?

#1
Leigha Offline
Why or why not? Discuss.
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#2
Syne Offline
Suffering? Not necessarily. Mistakes? Very likely.

Some people just seem to take more mistakes before they learn, and enough mistakes can lead to suffering.
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#3
Leigha Offline
Suppose others' mistakes cause your suffering? Can you still glean something positive from that kind of suffering?
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#4
Syne Offline
Sure. Your mistake could have been that you weren't proactive enough to avoid/counteract the mistakes of others.
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#5
C C Offline
(Oct 15, 2017 01:34 AM)Leigha Wrote: Why or why not? Discuss.


Mental / physical pain is not a universal pre-condition for beneficial development. With some people it can have a detrimental, inferiority-generating, or downgrading effect from which they might never recover (especially in the context of abuse). What either the individual or an institution construes as "positive growth" can vary enough that some versions of the idea will be satisfied or accomplished without need of misery and trauma. Intellectual activity alone can bring about constructive modifications, albeit behaviorally inconsistent or hypocritical at times, depending again on what the subculture is specifically prizing as such.

If there are certain skill-sets that an occupation or group values, then those will entail experience and building up psychological and physical endurance over time in order to achieve the desired results. ("No suffering, no acquiring a high tolerance for it!"; "No substitute for actually living through hardship rather than merely descriptively understanding it!"; etc). But those will doubtless stray from what another discipline's / establishment's standards for "good maturation or personal progress" center around.

- - -
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#6
RainbowUnicorn Offline
(Oct 15, 2017 01:34 AM)Leigha Wrote: Why or why not? Discuss.
philisophically speaking on a biological mathamatical scale one could define suffering as all aspects of life forced against the expanding process of cell division.

thus gravity as a force is a process of suffering.

...as much as to suggest that considering gravity effects all things, all things suffer gravity, and thus all life is not possible without suffering.

the emotional aspects of suffering are infinitely more complex based on subjective expereince and intellectual construct of personality & awareness/consciousness
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#7
Ostronomos Offline
(Oct 15, 2017 02:55 AM)Syne Wrote: Suffering? Not necessarily. Mistakes? Very likely.

Some people just seem to take more mistakes before they learn, and enough mistakes can lead to suffering.

There is no set algorithm for triumph or victory. Success and learning are largely regarded as a matter of intelligence. As long as the individual learns from his mistakes is all that matters.
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#8
Leigha Offline
(Oct 15, 2017 05:03 AM)Syne Wrote: Sure. Your mistake could have been that you weren't proactive enough to avoid/counteract the mistakes of others.
While that is true, sometimes...how about the victims of the shooter in Las Vegas? (and for those who died, their families who are left behind to suffer)

No, there are some people who are truly victims of circumstance, and so the question is...will their lives be better for having suffered by someone else's ''mistakes?'' 
(Oct 15, 2017 06:27 AM)C C Wrote:
(Oct 15, 2017 01:34 AM)Leigha Wrote: Why or why not? Discuss.


Mental / physical pain is not a universal pre-condition for beneficial development. With some people it can have a detrimental, inferiority-generating, or downgrading effect from which they might never recover (especially in the context of abuse). What either the individual or an institution construes as "positive growth" can vary enough that some versions of the idea will be satisfied or accomplished without need of misery and trauma. Intellectual activity alone can bring about constructive modifications, albeit behaviorally inconsistent or hypocritical at times, depending again on what the subculture is specifically prizing as such.  

If there are certain skill-sets that an occupation or group values, then those will entail experience and building up psychological and physical endurance over time in order to achieve the desired results. ("No suffering, no acquiring a high tolerance for it!"; "No substitute for actually living through hardship rather than merely descriptively understanding it!"; etc). But those will doubtless stray from what another discipline's / establishment's standards for "good maturation or personal progress" center around.

- - -
In Buddhism, a central thought is that pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. In other words, we can choose to suffer. I've always thought that idea was a bit out there, considering that we have an idea of suffering not being optional. To stub our toe on the bed post would cause inevitable pain, but if I lay in bed all day crying over it...would that be more about me choosing to suffer? There might be another person who stubs their toe, and they cry out in pain for a few moments, and then move on with their day. I'm choosing a simple example, but this could be why some people wallow away in self pity over issues that others rise above, and still have a positive, productive life. An example would be someone who was born with no legs, but through much therapy, and new advances in technology, they wear prosthetic limbs, and run marathons. But, maybe someone else who was born without limbs, remains bed ridden, angry...wondering why they were given such a bad deal. I understand your points, but what do you think about this?
(Oct 15, 2017 12:42 PM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote:
(Oct 15, 2017 01:34 AM)Leigha Wrote: Why or why not? Discuss.
philisophically speaking on a biological mathamatical scale one could define suffering as all aspects of life forced against the expanding process of cell division.

thus gravity as a force is a process of suffering.

...as much as to suggest that considering gravity effects all things, all things suffer gravity, and thus all life is not possible without suffering.

the emotional aspects of suffering are infinitely more complex based on subjective expereince and intellectual construct of personality & awareness/consciousness
Gravity as a force, is a process of suffering. That's curious. I'll have to think about that.
(Oct 15, 2017 02:24 PM)Ostronomos Wrote:
(Oct 15, 2017 02:55 AM)Syne Wrote: Suffering? Not necessarily. Mistakes? Very likely.

Some people just seem to take more mistakes before they learn, and enough mistakes can lead to suffering.

There is no set algorithm for triumph or victory. Success and learning are largely regarded as a matter of intelligence. As long as the individual learns from his mistakes is all that matters.

Agreed except I'm not sure if one's intelligence has anything to do with learning from mistakes. There are many intelligent people who for example, are buried in credit card debt. They aren't learning anything from their mistakes, not because they are not smart, but perhaps because of laziness, or an addiction to shopping. So, intelligence might not be enough to learn from one's mistakes.
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#9
Ostronomos Offline
(Oct 15, 2017 06:04 PM)Leigha Wrote:
(Oct 15, 2017 02:24 PM)Ostronomos Wrote:
(Oct 15, 2017 02:55 AM)Syne Wrote: Suffering? Not necessarily. Mistakes? Very likely.

Some people just seem to take more mistakes before they learn, and enough mistakes can lead to suffering.

There is no set algorithm for triumph or victory. Success and learning are largely regarded as a matter of intelligence. As long as the individual learns from his mistakes is all that matters.

Agreed except I'm not sure if one's intelligence has anything to do with learning from mistakes. There are many intelligent people who for example, are buried in credit card debt. They aren't learning anything from their mistakes, not because they are not smart, but perhaps because of laziness, or an addiction to shopping. So, intelligence might not be enough to learn from one's mistakes.

Supposedly this website on the internet claims you can find freedom from suffering by reading it. It claims that the 'I' as ego and 'me' as soul are the sole cause of all suffering in the world, but it is a lie. I fell for this website and it grew on me like a disease over the years until I was able to penetrate through the lies and deception. I found God via the Quantum world and now my belief system is composed of two diametrically opposing forces. God has won over the website though and I believe his power to wield over that which I now cherish is much stronger than any lie that claims itself to be taken as truth at face value from some website with a hidden underlying agenda that attempts to bury the reality of Quantum Mechanics.
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#10
Syne Offline
(Oct 15, 2017 06:04 PM)Leigha Wrote:
(Oct 15, 2017 05:03 AM)Syne Wrote: Sure. Your mistake could have been that you weren't proactive enough to avoid/counteract the mistakes of others.
While that is true, sometimes...how about the victims of the shooter in Las Vegas? (and for those who died, their families who are left behind to suffer)

No, there are some people who are truly victims of circumstance, and so the question is...will their lives be better for having suffered by someone else's ''mistakes?'' 

Yes. Their lives were better for living in a causative world that allowed for free will...even at the expense of someones' evil choices negatively affecting them. It's the exact same "problem of evil" argument that accounts for natural disaster...where no person is involved in causing the suffering.

"To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep
No more; and by a sleep, to say we end
the heart-ache, and the thousand natural shocks
that Flesh is heir to?" - W.S.

Quote:
(Oct 15, 2017 02:24 PM)Ostronomos Wrote:
(Oct 15, 2017 02:55 AM)Syne Wrote: Suffering? Not necessarily. Mistakes? Very likely.

Some people just seem to take more mistakes before they learn, and enough mistakes can lead to suffering.

There is no set algorithm for triumph or victory. Success and learning are largely regarded as a matter of intelligence. As long as the individual learns from his mistakes is all that matters.

Agreed except I'm not sure if one's intelligence has anything to do with learning from mistakes. There are many intelligent people who for example, are buried in credit card debt. They aren't learning anything from their mistakes, not because they are not smart, but perhaps because of laziness, or an addiction to shopping. So, intelligence might not be enough to learn from one's mistakes.

I agree. Intelligence alone does not seem to be decisive. Moral character does. Exactly how many bad choices can a person justify to themselves before they learn?
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