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Do you believe that suffering is necessary for positive growth?

#11
Secular Sanity Offline
(Oct 15, 2017 06:04 PM)Leigha Wrote: In Buddhism, a central thought is that pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. In other words, we can choose to suffer. I've always thought that idea was a bit out there, considering that we have an idea of suffering not being optional. To stub our toe on the bed post would cause inevitable pain, but if I lay in bed all day crying over it...would that be more about me choosing to suffer? There might be another person who stubs their toe, and they cry out in pain for a few moments, and then move on with their day. I'm choosing a simple example, but this could be why some people wallow away in self pity over issues that others rise above, and still have a positive, productive life. An example would be someone who was born with no legs, but through much therapy, and new advances in technology, they wear prosthetic limbs, and run marathons. But, maybe someone else who was born without limbs, remains bed ridden, angry...wondering why they were given such a bad deal. I understand your points, but what do you think about this?

Everybody struggles, and we all suffer to some extent, but it doesn’t always make one wise.  I could be wrong but I think this comes from religious concepts where people see suffering as a divine necessity.  What did Hitchens say, “…a cult that promoted suffering?”

When I was kid, I had a friend, Carl. He lost one of his legs in an accident.  The only time that I ever thought about it was when his limitations spoiled our adventures.  There was this mountain that was pretty far away.  I wanted to see what was there.  I convinced him to go with me.  He thought it was too far for him to walk but I promised to help him.  On the way back, it started to get dark and scary.  When we started running, his prosthetic leg came off.  I couldn’t figure out how to buckle it back on.  We stopped at my house first because it was closer. We asked my mother to help us but she couldn’t figure it out either.  She started crying.  At first, we thought that she was just worried about us because we were gone for so long, but as it turned out, she was crying because she felt sorry for him.  That never even dawned on us.  She drove us down to his house and apologized on my behalf.  I thought his parents were going to be angry because I had talked him into going with me, but they weren’t.  They showed me how to buckle his leg back on.  You wouldn’t believe some of the contraptions that we invented over the years to help Carl, but not because we felt sorry for him.  It was because we were bored and lonely, and we wanted him to play with us.

There’s a family that lives near me.  They were trying to escape the recent Northern California fires.  Both the mother and the daughter has sustained 60% burns on their bodies.  The father 40%. Their daughter just had to have both of her legs amputated below the knee.  Their son is dead but no one has told them yet.  They didn’t have home insurance.  They lost everything they owned.

The suicide rates clearly show that life can give some people more than they can bare, but I don’t think it’s the physical or mental struggles that push people over the edge.  I think it’s our mete-perceptions—our social desirability.  They feel like a burden, unaccepted, and unwanted.  

I think it’s important to define your own happiness, search for the things that you find interesting and meaningful, and learn to identify with the world through your eyes, and not the other way around.  

When we learn that the Easter bunny doesn’t lay colored eggs, that Santa isn’t an all seeing gifter, that gods are created in the images of men to protect oneself from uncertainty.  Eventually, truth prevails—seeps in little by little.  It shines a light onto human concepts and illusions, strips us of all our values, but what happens when we look into the abyss?  We can’t see past the horizon.  The earth will eventually become a fiery furnace but the philosophical concept of nothingness does not exist.  God may be dead, but not humanity, at least not yet.

What do we do?  Turn back to illusions?  No, we turn back to the world, find something that we can value—something real.  We learn that the little things aren’t so little.  That’s one of the nice things about fairies, isn’t it, wegs?  They remind us of the small things—little aesthetic gratifications, where we are rewarded for just being.  As children, we sought refuge in adventure, noticed all of these things, but as we grow up, we forget—become numb.

Happiness is transient just like everything else. If all of your goals were met, and all of views were recognized, praised, and accepted, would you live happily ever after?  No, because it’s not the acquisition that makes us happy, it’s the adventure itself.  Fulfillment is an illusion. Our development path is a continual process.

Like B.J. Miller said, so much of it comes down to loving our time by way of the senses, by way of the body—the very thing doing the living and the dying.
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#12
Leigha Offline
Agree with you, SS. I used to escape into religion, but not anymore...I don't begrudge people who do. It's their choice. If religion brings them happiness, so be it. But, for me, I find a lot of joy in not creating illusions for myself, but in accepting that life offers a potpourri of beautiful and not so beautiful events, that shape us. That is the essence of life itself. I believe that suffering has the ability to shape us for the better, but it can also as you say, be too much to bare. I find Nietzsche's commentary about suffering to be particularly curious, in that he felt that suffering was somewhat necessary to leading a fulfilling life.

Worth reading.

http://bigthink.com/scotty-hendricks/man...-nietzsche
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#13
Ostronomos Offline
I believe that suffering shapes us into better people. Isolation and existential angst can grow on us slowly and cause us to passionately express our pain. We are told by authority figures and legal systems not to become too passionate. But suppression causes further suffering and the cycle continues. Supposedly if we can "see ourselves" from a vantage point high above we would vastly reduce our suffering. This is because intellectual elitism and arrogance can bring us higher, but only by our own efforts, and the consequences are alienating. We should strive to live in moderation. Even with great wealth, as taking extremes and experiencing suffering on a regular basis can cause us to build defense mechanisms against our worst fears and nightmares.
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#14
Ostronomos Offline
Secular Sanity
(Oct 15, 2017 06:04 PM)Leigha Wrote: In Buddhism, a central thought is that pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. In other words, we can choose to suffer. I've always thought that idea was a bit out there, considering that we have an idea of suffering not being optional. To stub our toe on the bed post would cause inevitable pain, but if I lay in bed all day crying over it...would that be more about me choosing to suffer? There might be another person who stubs their toe, and they cry out in pain for a few moments, and then move on with their day. I'm choosing a simple example, but this could be why some people wallow away in self pity over issues that others rise above, and still have a positive, productive life. An example would be someone who was born with no legs, but through much therapy, and new advances in technology, they wear prosthetic limbs, and run marathons. But, maybe someone else who was born without limbs, remains bed ridden, angry...wondering why they were given such a bad deal. I understand your points, but what do you think about this?
Quote:The suicide rates clearly show that life can give some people more than they can bare, but I don’t think it’s the physical or mental struggles that push people over the edge.  I think it’s our mete-perceptions—our social desirability.  They feel like a burden, unaccepted, and unwanted.

Yes. This is correct. The need to belong runs deep in our breast - that desiring a social status, that membership in the human species. It is assumed that our psyche is an illusion which can be called the 'I'. Love is a fiery adventure, but when it's over in a flash it can leave one feeling longing within this hole we call the 'I'. Suffering builds character but when it is too much to bear we break down.


Quote:I think it’s important to define your own happiness, search for the things that you find interesting and meaningful, and learn to identify with the world through your eyes, and not the other way around.  



Bingo.



Quote:When we learn that the Easter bunny doesn’t lay colored eggs, that Santa isn’t an all seeing gifter, that gods are created in the images of men to protect oneself from uncertainty.  Eventually, truth prevails—seeps in little by little.  It shines a light onto human concepts and illusions, strips us of all our values, but what happens when we look into the abyss?  We can’t see past the horizon.  The earth will eventually become a fiery furnace but the philosophical concept of nothingness does not exist.  God may be dead, but not humanity, at least not yet.

Yes. It is humanity's ignorance that prevents them from understanding how or what a God is. Truth does not always prevail in other words as I've learned. Sometimes lies prevail. But we have a few people who know the truth and with their teachings we too shall see it. Hence truth exists, but only among the few in some instances. Humanity is not bold enough to search it out. We would rather retreat into our own little worlds and call that truth.



Quote:Happiness is transient just like everything else. If all of your goals were met, and all of views were recognized, praised, and accepted, would you live happily ever after?  No, because it’s not the acquisition that makes us happy, it’s the adventure itself.  Fulfillment is an illusion. Our development path is a continual process.

Like B.J. Miller said, so much of it comes down to loving our time by way of the senses, by way of the body—the very thing doing the living and the dying.

Indeed. But alas, in no way does this exclude us from the divine. Although the body perishes, our energy field becomes one with the universe upon death. But this only theoretically works if and when we go Quantum, not Classical. There are books on the Boddhisattvas teachings regarding this very metaphysical nature.
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#15
Syne Offline
(Oct 16, 2017 07:41 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: Everybody struggles, and we all suffer to some extent, but it doesn’t always make one wise.  I could be wrong but I think this comes from religious concepts where people see suffering as a divine necessity.  What did Hitchens say, “…a cult that promoted suffering?”

"Suffering is a divine necessity"? Where do you get that idea from religion?
Yeah, that's Hitchens criticizing Mother Theresa. Do you really think Mother Theresa promoted suffering, or did she try to help people deal with their suffering? O_o

Quote:When we learn that the Easter bunny doesn’t lay colored eggs, that Santa isn’t an all seeing gifter, that gods are created in the images of men to protect oneself from uncertainty. Eventually, truth prevails—seeps in little by little.  It shines a light onto human concepts and illusions, strips us of all our values, but what happens when we look into the abyss?  We can’t see past the horizon.  The earth will eventually become a fiery furnace but the philosophical concept of nothingness does not exist.  God may be dead, but not humanity, at least not yet.

Well, at least you seem to realize that devaluing the concept of god "strips us of all our values".

Quote:Happiness is transient just like everything else. If all of your goals were met, and all of views were recognized, praised, and accepted, would you live happily ever after?  No, because it’s not the acquisition that makes us happy, it’s the adventure itself.  Fulfillment is an illusion. Our development path is a continual process.

Like B.J. Miller said, so much of it comes down to loving our time by way of the senses, by way of the body—the very thing doing the living and the dying.

Happiness is only transient when it relies on material things like the senses and bodily pleasure alone. The ability to imbue things with meaning allows one to enjoy all things. Not just "little aesthetic gratifications". There is no journey to enjoy without the ability to postulate goals to attain. How do you postulate goals without assigning significance? How can the journey toward subjectively meaningless goals be enjoyable?

(Oct 17, 2017 01:10 AM)Leigha Wrote: Agree with you, SS. I used to escape into religion, but not anymore...I don't begrudge people who do. It's their choice. If religion brings them happiness, so be it. But, for me, I find a lot of joy in not creating illusions for myself, but in accepting that life offers a potpourri of beautiful and not so beautiful events, that shape us. That is the essence of life itself. I believe that suffering has the ability to shape us for the better, but it can also as you say, be too much to bare.

If you used religion as an escape, you likely didn't understand religion. That's kind of like a smoker/drinker who doesn't quit for a lack of other coping skills.
"Joy in not creating"? I'm not even sure that's a thing. Is there joy in being a rock too? All creating is initially illusion. It's postulating something that doesn't exist and working to bring it into existence.
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#16
Leigha Offline
(Oct 17, 2017 03:25 AM)Syne Wrote:
(Oct 16, 2017 07:41 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: Everybody struggles, and we all suffer to some extent, but it doesn’t always make one wise.  I could be wrong but I think this comes from religious concepts where people see suffering as a divine necessity.  What did Hitchens say, “…a cult that promoted suffering?”

"Suffering is a divine necessity"? Where do you get that idea from religion?
Yeah, that's Hitchens criticizing Mother Theresa. Do you really think Mother Theresa promoted suffering, or did she try to help people deal with their suffering? O_o

Quote:When we learn that the Easter bunny doesn’t lay colored eggs, that Santa isn’t an all seeing gifter, that gods are created in the images of men to protect oneself from uncertainty. Eventually, truth prevails—seeps in little by little.  It shines a light onto human concepts and illusions, strips us of all our values, but what happens when we look into the abyss?  We can’t see past the horizon.  The earth will eventually become a fiery furnace but the philosophical concept of nothingness does not exist.  God may be dead, but not humanity, at least not yet.

Well, at least you seem to realize that devaluing the concept of god "strips us of all our values".

Quote:Happiness is transient just like everything else. If all of your goals were met, and all of views were recognized, praised, and accepted, would you live happily ever after?  No, because it’s not the acquisition that makes us happy, it’s the adventure itself.  Fulfillment is an illusion. Our development path is a continual process.

Like B.J. Miller said, so much of it comes down to loving our time by way of the senses, by way of the body—the very thing doing the living and the dying.

Happiness is only transient when it relies on material things like the senses and bodily pleasure alone. The ability to imbue things with meaning allows one to enjoy all things. Not just "little aesthetic gratifications". There is no journey to enjoy without the ability to postulate goals to attain. How do you postulate goals without assigning significance? How can the journey toward subjectively meaningless goals be enjoyable?

(Oct 17, 2017 01:10 AM)Leigha Wrote: Agree with you, SS. I used to escape into religion, but not anymore...I don't begrudge people who do. It's their choice. If religion brings them happiness, so be it. But, for me, I find a lot of joy in not creating illusions for myself, but in accepting that life offers a potpourri of beautiful and not so beautiful events, that shape us. That is the essence of life itself. I believe that suffering has the ability to shape us for the better, but it can also as you say, be too much to bare.

If you used religion as an escape, you likely didn't understand religion. That's kind of like a smoker/drinker who doesn't quit for a lack of other coping skills.
"Joy in not creating"? I'm not even sure that's a thing. Is there joy in being a rock too? All creating is initially illusion. It's postulating something that doesn't exist and working to bring it into existence.

I understand religion just fine, and no one needs it. Spirituality, different. Belief in God, different. But, religion? Especially the unbridled versions? No thanks.

By the way, this is a philosophy topic, your opinion is only your own, there are no right or wrong answers, here. We don't speak for others, because we can't. Maybe you should reflect on why you always feel like you need to be right, or tell others that what they're thinking is wrong? Therein might lie your happiness. I don't have that need, because I don't pretend to know why others think as they do. There's a lot more to take away from listening (in this case, reading) in a conversation, than talking...err...posting.
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#17
Secular Sanity Offline
(Oct 17, 2017 01:10 AM)Leigha Wrote: Agree with you, SS. I used to escape into religion, but not anymore...I don't begrudge people who do. It's their choice. If religion brings them happiness, so be it. But, for me, I find a lot of joy in not creating illusions for myself, but in accepting that life offers a potpourri of beautiful and not so beautiful events, that shape us. That is the essence of life itself. I believe that suffering has the ability to shape us for the better, but it can also as you say, be too much to bare. I find Nietzsche's commentary about suffering to be particularly curious, in that he felt that suffering was somewhat necessary to leading a fulfilling life.

Worth reading.

http://bigthink.com/scotty-hendricks/man...-nietzsche

"What does not kill me makes me stronger."—Nietzsche

Well, you know that I'm a Nietzsche fan. It was good. Thanks!

"Nietzsche was against Christianity for the same reason he was against getting drunk. In the short term, going to hear a sermon in the church might make you feel quite good in the same way that getting drunk could make you feel quite good, but in the long term, Christianity in Nietzsche’s eyes, dulls pain, and in this way also dulls the energy that pain can give us to overcome problems."—Alain de Botton

Once you’re free from society’s ideals, the hard part is figuring out what it is that you want.

Goodnight, little Missy.

(Oct 17, 2017 02:50 AM)Ostronomos Wrote: Indeed. But alas, in no way does this exclude us from the divine. Although the body perishes, our energy field becomes one with the universe upon death. But this only theoretically works if and when we go Quantum, not Classical. There are books on the Boddhisattvas teachings regarding this very metaphysical nature.

We eat dead things. We eat for energy. We took it from the field and we’ll return it to the field. Our energy will be recycled. I wouldn’t call decomposition a metaphysical thing, though.
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#20
Syne Offline
(Oct 17, 2017 03:43 AM)Leigha Wrote: I understand religion just fine, and no one needs it. Spirituality, different. Belief in God, different. But, religion? Especially the unbridled versions? No thanks.

By the way, this is a philosophy topic, your opinion is only your own, there are no right or wrong answers, here. We don't speak for others, because we can't. Maybe you should reflect on why you always feel like you need to be right, or tell others that what they're thinking is wrong? Therein might lie your happiness. I don't have that need, because I don't pretend to know why others think as they do. There's a lot more to take away from listening (in this case, reading) in a conversation, than talking...err...posting.

Then why are you claiming "no one needs...religion"? That sure sounds like you're speaking for others. Why are you even arguing unless you are asserting the wrongness of something I've said? Sounds like you just want to do exactly what you seem to be criticizing while seeking to avoid any refute. If my opinion is neither right or wrong, why are you trying to silence it?

Oh, should I be silent if my opinion conflicts with those of ANYONE else? Is your bubble that precious?

I do listen. The problem is that a lot of people like to opine without even supporting their opinions. And the only reason to get upset about someone disagreeing with you is if it causes you cognitive dissonance.
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