Panentheism

[RainbowUnicorn]

The same way a concentration of synapses separates humans from animals.

Why would the concentration of this hypothetical Godstuff result in freewill? There's nothing even intuitively appealing about such an explanation. Are you saying Godstuff is like synapses? In what way? Why not strive for parsimony and say freewill emerges magically from concentrated synapses? At least there's empirical evidence for synapses.

*terminal mass activation ?

hhmm...
if that were a theological fact then it would detract from Godly omniessence.
Thus it would render god to a 3rd person aspect, which ... probably upsets an awful lot of religious people sentivities.

reminds me of the simpsons episode

Uh, Sir, why don’t you just use real cows? Cows don’t look like cows on film. You gotta use horses. What do you do if you want something that looks like a horse? Ehh, usually we just tape a bunch of cats together.

[Image: RKxoJp3.png]

[Syne]

https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/-KSryJXDpZo

Thanks.
ok, so your referring to group co-operation of survival instincts of primates.
They operate as a group.  sharing food benifits them to gain food when they have none.
though the examples are in captivity and so are extranious of learnt behaviours manipulating a survival instinct... aka dawinism by survival of those who share food with the group...

in the wild primates co-operate to gain food and share parental processes.
again darwinian by survival of those that share food and maternal control of babys.
passing on the gene that shares parental control & sharing food.

i would suggest the test must be carried out while both primates have excess food.
observing them to see if they habitually share food while not needing any and if that is autonomic or fluidly behavioural.

as you refer to morality a good example is new human mothers.
they seek to create and maintain a social system of socialism.
mean while some male humans advocate individualism of resources and moral ideology.
it could be argued that males have genetically inherited the process of being selfish which provides their genetic liniage being carried on.

This heard behaviour for best survival is not what i would define as  morality.

excellent points of dicussion to observe the interaction of capitlism(resource individualism[selfishness]) Vs socialism(resource sharing).

Trading what is in excess to gain something of non survival based need is a slightly different aspect of higher brain function and probably atributes more so to play and discovery where finding new food sources have been the genetic requirement while others of the species starve to death/die-out.

Watch the video I left quoted again. It does not demonstrate sharing or cooperation. It only illustrates one monkey's sense of being treated unfairly relative to another. You can even see the "cheated" monkey throw away food it happily accepted just moments earlier. That shows it is a dynamic response.

New human mothers are not predisposed to socialist systems. Where do you come up with this nonsense? O_o
And how would complete selfishness provide for genetic lineage? Absentee fathers are the biggest predictor of drug use, crime, depression, etc..

The interaction between capitalism and socialism is that only formerly/partially capitalist systems can peacefully support a socialist system for any significant duration. Evidence....every socialist system in history.

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But Syne, just like with any other religion, panentheism unnecessarily introduces a supernatural deity.  

You can still experience connectivity without having to invoke a divine agency.  Personally, I think awe is a form of self-transcendence. I also think that you can acknowledge your insignificance in a larger scheme of things without feeling insignificant.  Unlike you, I don’t view such vastness as an extension of myself.  I view myself as an extension of the vastness.  There are many things in life that I am able to love and enjoy without having to have them love me in return, e.g., wind, sunlight, water, food, landscapes, experiences, and even people.  Everything doesn’t have to be tied up in a neat little bow, Syne.  You can still have some form of personification if you need to.  The majority of people probably think of it as a parental figure, but Nietzsche thought of it as a woman.  I like to think of it as an interactive field. Occasionally, I think of it as a man, depending on my mood.  My point is that you can love life without having to invoke a divine agency.

No, panentheism doesn't require anything but a deist creator...no more supernatural than the Big Bang.

Do you really want to discuss your paltry idea of transcendence again? O_o
It is irrational, at best, to consider yourself an "extension of the vastness" that already encompasses you.
Who ever said you couldn't love life without a divine agency?

Who said panentheism was anything more than speculation? That would be like saying the debate between monism and dualism is settled. I can conclude whatever I like. Nothing says that my own, personal conclusions must be compelling to others.

Here’s what I don’t get, Syne.  You know that a majority of them claim that they have access to god’s mind in some context or another.  If they were like you, and just admitted that they were just speculating, then they wouldn’t feel so compelled to impose their ideology on others, but they’re not like you.  So, why do you defend them?  Why dabble in Christian apologetics ?

In terms of compelling evidence, it is speculation, but I do have access to things others seem completely unaware.
I don't "dabble", I am a Christian apologist...just not a Christian. "Impose"? You mean by telling people about things you think? Like you're doing here, posting on a forum? O_o

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The same way a concentration of synapses separates humans from animals.

Why would the concentration of this hypothetical Godstuff result in freewill? There's nothing even intuitively appealing about such an explanation. Are you saying Godstuff is like synapses? In what way? Why not strive for parsimony and say freewill emerges magically from concentrated synapses? At least there's empirical evidence for synapses.

I said "panentheism could be conceived as monist", not that it is. And the concentration of the monist substance is just a further speculation in the vein. Personally, I think that both monism and dualism are both true. One in the sense of fundamental principles and one in the sense of our anthropocentric perspective. Both have legitimate meaning in their own context.

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hhmm...
if that were a theological fact then it would detract from Godly omniessence.
Thus it would render god to a 3rd person aspect, which ... probably upsets an awful lot of religious people sentivities.

LOL! Are you really that clueless? Religious people very often DO think of god as a 3rd person perspective.

[RainbowUnicorn]

https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/-KSryJXDpZo

Thanks.
ok, so your referring to group co-operation of survival instincts of primates.
They operate as a group.  sharing food benifits them to gain food when they have none.
though the examples are in captivity and so are extranious of learnt behaviours manipulating a survival instinct... aka dawinism by survival of those who share food with the group...

in the wild primates co-operate to gain food and share parental processes.
again darwinian by survival of those that share food and maternal control of babys.
passing on the gene that shares parental control & sharing food.

i would suggest the test must be carried out while both primates have excess food.
observing them to see if they habitually share food while not needing any and if that is autonomic or fluidly behavioural.

as you refer to morality a good example is new human mothers.
they seek to create and maintain a social system of socialism.
mean while some male humans advocate individualism of resources and moral ideology.
it could be argued that males have genetically inherited the process of being selfish which provides their genetic liniage being carried on.

This heard behaviour for best survival is not what i would define as  morality.

excellent points of dicussion to observe the interaction of capitlism(resource individualism[selfishness]) Vs socialism(resource sharing).

Trading what is in excess to gain something of non survival based need is a slightly different aspect of higher brain function and probably atributes more so to play and discovery where finding new food sources have been the genetic requirement while others of the species starve to death/die-out.

Watch the video I left quoted again. It does not demonstrate sharing or cooperation. It only illustrates one monkey's sense of being treated unfairly relative to another. You can even see the "cheated" monkey throw away food it happily accepted just moments earlier. That shows it is a dynamic response.

New human mothers are not predisposed to socialist systems. Where do you come up with this nonsense? O_o
And how would complete selfishness provide for genetic lineage? Absentee fathers are the biggest predictor of drug use, crime, depression, etc..

The interaction between capitalism and socialism is that only formerly/partially capitalist systems can peacefully support a socialist system for any significant duration. Evidence....every socialist system in history.

ok... so i watched the video just in case you had posted something from this century.
so primates can identify food types...
an animal that is born in a group and must co-operate with the group to survive.
Food sharing is a genetic imperative.
identifying food types and seeking the better quality of food type is also genetic and well documented over many species.

The animal is NOT sharing food.
all 3 are monkeys according to the monkey
they are in a group
a better food source has been identified
survival dictates the drive to accumulate the most of the better food type.

where is the god bit your referring to ?

[Secular Sanity]

Do you really want to discuss your paltry idea of transcendence again?

Kind of because I don't understand it.

It is irrational, at best, to consider yourself an "extension of the vastness" that already encompasses you.

Well, I think it's rather narcissistic to even consider another person as an extension of yourself, much less the vastness of the entire universe as an extension of yourself.

My cognitive functions are an extension.  My chemistry and complex structures are an extension.  The chemistry of life is an extension of the organic chemistry of our planet’s environment, which is the extension of cosmic evolution from particulate to galactic, stellar, planetary, chemical, biological, and little ole me.  

No, panentheism doesn't require anything but a deist creator...no more supernatural than the Big Bang.

All possible without the need to invoke a god.

In terms of compelling evidence, it is speculation, but I do have access to things others seem completely unaware.

Like what?  Please explain.

[Syne]

ok... so i watched the video just in case you had posted something from this century.
so primates can identify food types...
an animal that is born in a group and must co-operate with the group to survive.
Food sharing is a genetic imperative.
identifying food types and seeking the better quality of food type is also genetic and well documented over many species.

The animal is NOT sharing food.
all 3 are monkeys according to the monkey
they are in a group
a better food source has been identified
survival dictates the drive to accumulate the most of the better food type.

where is the god bit your referring to ?

Hey, if you can't understand the perfectly obvious...and there's a whole TED talk explaining that one...or even the article demonstrating it in dogs...I obviously can't get through your immense confirmation bias.

And I never said this had anything to do with god. If you could keep track of your own side of the conversation, you'd know that you only asked about animals demonstrating fairness...and that's what I answered. I gave you exactly what you asked for...videos showing what I said...and you can't even manage to believe your own eyes.

Do you really want to discuss your paltry idea of transcendence again?

Kind of because I don't understand it.

It is irrational, at best, to consider yourself an "extension of the vastness" that already encompasses you.

Well, I think it's rather narcissistic to even consider another person as an extension of yourself, much less the vastness of the entire universe as an extension of yourself.

It's simple English, deary.
extension - a part that is added to something to enlarge or prolong it
You are already a part of the vastness of the universe. You recognizing your relative insignificance adds nothing to it.

That you equate a simple increase of being with narcissism seems like a disregard for personal growth. Maybe that's a tact to take. Have you ever learned something that forced you to abandon something you were previously certain was true?

My cognitive functions are an extension.  My chemistry and complex structures are an extension.  The chemistry of life is an extension of the organic chemistry of our planet’s environment, which is the extension of cosmic evolution from particulate to galactic, stellar, planetary, chemical, biological, and little ole me.  

Your functions and structures are an extension of their physically reducible constituents. And yes, you are already a part of the vastness of the universe...without any cognition required at all.

No, panentheism doesn't require anything but a deist creator...no more supernatural than the Big Bang.

All possible without the need to invoke a god.

And? When science admits that we can never know what happened at or previous to the Big Bang, what's the difference what you invoke to fill such a gap of eternal mystery? God of the gaps or science of the gaps....it's all fundamentally the same.

In terms of compelling evidence, it is speculation, but I do have access to things others seem completely unaware.

Like what?  Please explain.

Sure. I'll explain by way of a counterexample. Do you believe that the Libet and similar neuroscience experiments disprove free will?
After all, why else would you doubt what you feel you actually experience? Or do you even feel like you experience free will?

[RainbowUnicorn]

ok... so i watched the video just in case you had posted something from this century.
so primates can identify food types...
an animal that is born in a group and must co-operate with the group to survive.
Food sharing is a genetic imperative.
identifying food types and seeking the better quality of food type is also genetic and well documented over many species.

The animal is NOT sharing food.
all 3 are monkeys according to the monkey
they are in a group
a better food source has been identified
survival dictates the drive to accumulate the most of the better food type.

where is the god bit your referring to ?

Hey, if you can't understand the perfectly obvious...and there's a whole TED talk explaining that one...or even the article demonstrating it in dogs...I obviously can't get through your immense confirmation bias.  

And I never said this had anything to do with god. If you could keep track of your own side of the conversation, you'd know that you only asked about animals demonstrating fairness...and that's what I answered. I gave you exactly what you asked for...videos showing what I said...and you can't even manage to believe your own eyes.  

just because the monkey has arms and can throw the food does not make it any different to Cats, Dogs, Parrots, Cockatoo's, Budgerigars.
The anthropromorphism of primates is a bit pop-sciencey of the 60s.

dogs will over turn a bowl of food then physically touch the person, alternately stop eating and allow another dog to eat from its bowl.
cats will walk away from the food and allow another cat to eat from its bowl
parrots and other birds will peck the human and also throw the food out of the cage when it identifies a better food source that it is being denied.

i have personally witnessed these behaviours numerous times.
It has nothing to do with the human concept of Fairness as a moral principal.

Capitalism is the process of gaining a better advantage of resources over those around you.
Capitalism is not a moral principal.
seeking to force others to treate capitalists equally to people whom share their resources IS a moral ideology.

hoarding is a natural animalistic human traite also.
as equally as building labour saving technology that allows your tribe to survive through the winter.
Crop Rotation, etc etc...

asserting a value of moral ideology as a principal of a non human animal is anthropromorphism.
wild animals are just as likely to kill another of their species for a food item even when there is no critical shortage, while humans define such actions as non human and immoral.

[Secular Sanity]

Have you ever learned something that forced you to abandon something you were previously certain was true?

Yes.

When science admits that we can never know what happened at or previous to the Big Bang, what's the difference what you invoke to fill such a gap of eternal mystery? God of the gaps or science of the gaps....it's all fundamentally the same.

(The most essential part of trolling is convincing someone that you truly believe in what you are saying, no matter how outrageous.) 

It was nice meeting you, Syne.  Take care.  I'm out.

[Syne]

just because the monkey has arms and can throw the food does not make it any different to Cats, Dogs, Parrots, Cockatoo's, Budgerigars.
The anthropromorphism of primates is a bit pop-sciencey of the 60s.

And I already gave you an article demonstrating the same things in dogs. Here's another one talking about dogs, rats, and crows: http://www.oipa.org/international/animal...-fairness/

dogs will over turn a bowl of food then physically touch the person, alternately stop eating and allow another dog to eat from its bowl.
cats will walk away from the food and allow another cat to eat from its bowl
parrots and other birds will peck the human and also throw the food out of the cage when it identifies a better food source that it is being denied.

i have personally witnessed these behaviours numerous times.
It has nothing to do with the human concept of Fairness as a moral principal.

You're not describing the same behaviors. My examples are repeatable experiments. You're just favoring your own personal anecdotes over actual science.

Capitalism is the process of gaining a better advantage of resources over those around you.
Capitalism is not a moral principal.
seeking to force others to treate capitalists equally to people whom share their resources IS a moral ideology.

No, you're conflating capitalism and greed. Free market capitalism is voluntary and mutually beneficial. Socialism is stealing from people at the point of a gun.

asserting a value of moral ideology as a principal of a non human animal is anthropromorphism.
wild animals are just as likely to kill another of their species for a food item even when there is no critical shortage, while humans define such actions as non human and immoral.

Care to show any scientific demonstration of anything you're claiming? No? Didn't think so.

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Have you ever learned something that forced you to abandon something you were previously certain was true?

Yes.

Like what? O_o

When science admits that we can never know what happened at or previous to the Big Bang, what's the difference what you invoke to fill such a gap of eternal mystery? God of the gaps or science of the gaps....it's all fundamentally the same.

(The most essential part of trolling is convincing someone that you truly believe in what you are saying, no matter how outrageous.) 

It was nice meeting you, Syne.  Take care.  I'm out.

I'm not trolling, so quit projecting. This is just your typical ad hominem defense to avoid questions and reasoning that makes you doubt yourself. You obviously can't refute the facts I've stated.

[confused2]

No, panentheism doesn't require anything but a deist creator...no more supernatural than the Big Bang.

On the one hand we have roughly the same physics as a hole in a sock and on the other hand we have a deity which will subsequently demand human sacrifice, prayers five times a day, 10% of your income and many other variations which people have been willing to tolerate through various combinations of ignorance and fear. The Easter Bunny will guarantee a place in bunny heaven (subject to availability) for only 1% of your income. Cheques to me please.

[Syne]

No, panentheism doesn't require anything but a deist creator...no more supernatural than the Big Bang.

On the one hand we have roughly the same physics as a hole in a sock and on the other hand we have a deity which will subsequently demand human sacrifice, prayers five times a day, 10% of your income and many other variations which people have been willing to tolerate through various combinations of ignorance and fear. The Easter Bunny will guarantee a place in bunny heaven (subject to availability) for only 1% of your income. Cheques to me please.

Apparently someone doesn't know what "deist" means.