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Couple of Puzzling Questions

#1
Zinjanthropos Offline
Two things I can't seem to understand about religion....

1. If I kill for religion or if I am killed because of my religion then how is it that religion is not the reason?

Rationale for asking: there are plenty of things that don't result in deaths despite differences of opinion. I like a particular soda but as yet I haven't read about people murdered because they like Pepsi or murdered because I like Pepsi and I think everybody should.

2. If I claim to know all about God then why am I still considered a believer in God and why would I ask others to believe?

Rationale for asking: once fact is known/proven then there is no reason to believe. Asking someone to believe in something I know as fact just seems like going backwards. If you know then there are ways to pass on the knowledge and people can either accept or refuse. 

These questions are conundrums for me. They represent a part of humanity that is somewhat paradoxical in my mind at at least.
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#2
Secular Sanity Offline
(Jul 12, 2017 05:56 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: Two things I can't seem to understand about religion....

1. If I kill for religion or if I am killed because of my religion then how is it that religion is not the reason?

Rationale for asking: there are plenty of things that don't result in deaths despite differences of opinion. I like a particular soda but as yet I haven't read about people murdered because they like Pepsi or murdered because I like Pepsi and I think everybody should.

2. If I claim to know all about God then why am I still considered a believer in God and why would I ask others to believe?

Rationale for asking: once fact is known/proven then there is no reason to believe. Asking someone to believe in something I know as fact just seems like going backwards. If you know then there are ways to pass on the knowledge and people can either accept or refuse. 

These questions are conundrums for me. They represent a part of humanity that is somewhat paradoxical in my mind at at least.

The Power Paradox
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#3
Zinjanthropos Offline
POWER? Maybe so.

Regardless, when the powerless are being preached to by the power who claims to know everything about a deity, then why can't the powerless see that they are being told to believe what the power already claims to know? I mean if I told you I was 50 years old then I could show you a legal document/identification of my DOB, I don't need to ask you to believe it. What is it in the minds of the powerless that has them believing and not be in want of actual proof of claim? The only thing I can think of is that evolution dictates this as it has proven to be a successful survival trait. I wonder what the evolutionary adaptation is for. But It's life, as long as it keeps going all is well I suppose.
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#4
Secular Sanity Offline
(Jul 12, 2017 09:07 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: POWER? Maybe so.

Regardless, when the powerless are being preached to by the power who claims to know everything about a deity, then why can't the powerless see that they are being told to believe what the power already claims to know? I mean if I told you I was 50 years old then I could show you a legal document/identification of my DOB, I don't need to ask you to believe it. What is it in the minds of the powerless that has them believing and not be in want of actual proof of claim? The only thing I can think of is that evolution dictates this as it has proven to be a successful survival trait. I wonder what the evolutionary adaptation is for.  But It's life, as long as it keeps going all is well I suppose.

Like the article said, "to be human is to be immersed in power dynamics."

I think that power and control sums it up.   An innate need for purpose and order—a narrative to escape chaos, randomness, and a sense of helplessness through adherence to some external source of control, whether it be coercive power, reward power, referent power, legitimate power, or expert power.  

(Jul 10, 2017 12:12 AM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: I could never understand how women end up with a control freak or abuser.

Women do tend to be more religious than men and throughout history we've had lower levels of personal control.  We also have this paradoxical desire of wanting to be in control, but with the need to be secure enough to relinquish it. Why do think women were drawn to "Fifty Shades of Grey"?

All of us acquire plots through social exposure.  It’s not just the pious, Zinman.  Although, there’s reasons as to why things happen, we all want things to happen for a reason, an affirmation of life, so to speak.

I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. –Nietzsche

From the pious to the artists, philosophers, secularists, and even the scientists; we’re all treacle miners at heart—searching for the sweet spot.

Alice laughed. 'There's no use trying, she said, 'one can't believe impossible things.'
'I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. 'When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast…
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#5
C C Offline
(Jul 12, 2017 05:56 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: Two things I can't seem to understand about religion....

1. If I kill for religion or if I am killed because of my religion then how is it that religion is not the reason?

Rationale for asking: there are plenty of things that don't result in deaths despite differences of opinion. I like a particular soda but as yet I haven't read about people murdered because they like Pepsi or murdered because I like Pepsi and I think everybody should.


It seems unclear to me what is supposed to be accomplished even if there was an acknowledgement of such. That is: Beliefs, worldviews, and political orientations and many other human operations usually don't get retired for causing deaths, anyway. Especially if they've got a measurable percentage who assert or have demonstrated that "we don't agree with _X_ part of our membership" and the corporations have good lawyers. Nazism arguably didn't have any "nicely behaving" part of it at all and yet even it still manages to endure in far lesser numbers or influence than its heyday.

In terms of including even broader classifications than religion, bringing organized crime like the Mafia along with them or "let's kill all the infidels and their Islamic allies" radicals bumming a ride with the crowd isn't successfully held against population groups when they try to immigrate. Because the majority of the latter are overwhelmingly going to be the next exemplary citizens, doctors, geniuses, leaders, inventors, or role models, heroes and icons. Something like that which existing denizens of the destination country are told propaganda-wise, anyhow, with examples extracted from their history and current day.

Quote:2. If I claim to know all about God then why am I still considered a believer in God and why would I ask others to believe?

Rationale for asking: once fact is known/proven then there is no reason to believe. Asking someone to believe in something I know as fact just seems like going backwards. If you know then there are ways to pass on the knowledge and people can either accept or refuse. 

These questions are conundrums for me. They represent a part of humanity that is somewhat paradoxical in my mind at at least.


Again, I can't really do anything with this since it doesn't seem to follow. Apart from what the most drug-addled, clinical condition afflicted, or born to be a Jerry Springer guest might hold (who could randomly say almost anything, like: "I decided to abort my alien hybrid baby after one of my husband's paramours consulted the Lord and got approval."). Finite beings have finite resources for representing and understanding even some concrete things, much less totally apprehending their supposed ultimate, "prior in rank to cosmos and everything else" abstraction. Would nuke the whole "God works in mysterious ways" excuse for the cliche apologetics of the everyday, semi-coherent preacher.

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