Death Beckons

[Syne]

I think feelings of guilt/shame/embarrassment would likely inhibit the devoted theist from admitting they had considered suicide as a way to meet their maker or open a door to the afterlife. Since most religions frown on it then I think it would be prudent for most to declare otherwise if in that situation. 

Depression as a motive, not so sure about that. It's a mental illness. People say they'll kill themselves because they're depressed? Don't think so. Associated with suicide? No doubt but it is not the motive IMHO.

Opinions are just that. There is a strong correlation between depression and suicide, whether we choose to call it motive or not.

Does your opinion of what theists do have any basis in fact or experience? If it did, wouldn't suicide rates be higher among theists?

[Zinjanthropos]

I think feelings of guilt/shame/embarrassment would likely inhibit the devoted theist from admitting they had considered suicide as a way to meet their maker or open a door to the afterlife. Since most religions frown on it then I think it would be prudent for most to declare otherwise if in that situation. 

Depression as a motive, not so sure about that. It's a mental illness. People say they'll kill themselves because they're depressed? Don't think so. Associated with suicide? No doubt but it is not the motive IMHO.

Opinions are just that. There is a strong correlation between depression and suicide, whether we choose to call it motive or not.

Does your opinion of what theists do have any basis in fact or experience? If it did, wouldn't suicide rates be higher among theists?

Last time I checked, 13-14% of the world was comprised of atheists & agnostics so I would imagine that yes, there would be more theists committing suicide. 

Not questioning that there is a correlation between depression and suicide. I just can't see how an illness provides the reason to kill oneself.

[Secular Sanity]

Last time I checked, 13-14% of the world was comprised of atheists & agnostics so I would imagine that yes, there would be more theists committing suicide. 

Not questioning that there is a correlation between depression and suicide. I just can't see how an illness provides the reason to kill oneself.

I doubt that Syne is a big fan of Alain de Botton, but you might like these little short clips, Zinman.

Suicide

History of Ideas-Failure

[Syne]

Opinions are just that. There is a strong correlation between depression and suicide, whether we choose to call it motive or not.

Does your opinion of what theists do have any basis in fact or experience? If it did, wouldn't suicide rates be higher among theists?

Last time I checked, 13-14% of the world was comprised of atheists & agnostics so I would imagine that yes, there would be more theists committing suicide. 

Not questioning that there is a correlation between depression and suicide. I just can't see how an illness provides the reason to kill oneself.

Hence suicide rate, usually how many per 100,000 people in a given group.

"Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation." - http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/...61.12.2303

Comparing raw numbers in groups of disparate size is meaningless.

You can't see how an illness, that effects how people think, could cause suicidal ideation?

[Zinjanthropos]

Depression doesn't provide the main impetus for someone to kill themselves. That's all I'm saying. If I have the flu I don't rush out and rob a bank. "I'm feeling depressed, time to kill myself"

[Ben the Donkey]

The Church (pretty much all of them) have always argued against suicide primarily because after millennia of trying to convince people that some form of paradise awaits after death, they are now faced with the conundrum of having to prevent people from wanting to go there a little earlier than intended. Which, you know, if you think about it, would be exactly what all believers would want to do... were they not informed it was a heinous sin.

That's both oversimplified and a gross generalization. Suicide is most often associated with depression...not hope for an afterlife...

So if you're raised in a high suicide rate culture, you're much more likely to approve of suicide...and perhaps consider it yourself.

Syne, when I mentioned that it was a short reply due to lack of motivation then it should be fairly obvious that it was somewhat tongue in cheek. Are you one of these people who needs to be slapped in the face with a cheesy yellow emoji or something?
When I say "somewhat", though, you should bear in mind it seems far easier to convince someone to strap a bomb to themselves and detonate it in a crowded marketplace when they're assured that won't be the end of all things for them. Of course there is a link between suicide and depression... just as, sometimes, there isn't. We could get into a discussion on whether or not extreme religious belief is evidence of a clear and intelligent mind as well, but you appear to be a fairly bright spark so that probably isn't necessary.

With regard to the bit in bold, I could say much the same thing though, regarding oversimplification. I've actually looked into suicide quite a bit, and what you said just there is also a gross generalisation. I broached the subject somewhere before, actually, might have even been on this forum. Was reading a study on suicide rates among young black folks in America. 

Zin actually has a point in that post above mine. That depression is often linked to suicide is not evidence in and of itself that depression is the root cause. It just makes it a more agreeable solution to the sufferer.
You just need to realise that depression is more a symptom than a malady in itself.


My spell checker picks up the "z" in generalisation as a spelling error. Goddamned yanks. Although I did read somewhere your scientific community, at least, has finally agreed to start pronouncing "aluminium" correctly. It's a start, I suppose. .

My (brief) take on the subject? Suicide isn't a tragedy in itself.  There are 7 billion people in the world, give or take, and quite frankly this "value of human life" thing has gotten entirely out of hand. Objectively speaking, we simply do not need so many of us running around, and if a few want to opt out, it's really no loss to anyone unless an emotional connection is involved. Trump, Clinton, Johnny Depp and Amber Heard could all off themselves tomorrow and, quite frankly, it would probably make me feel a little better... if anything at all. 
If someone like Einstein or Da Vinci were contemplating it, though, I'd probably do my beast to talk them out of it. I prefer quality over quantity.

Well, maybe Amber as well. Face like that, could forgive the woman just about anything. One of the most annoying things about being male is that beauty is a smokescreen for all kinds of evil. Playing medieval 2, I found myself quite joyously assassinating the Pope at every opportunity, but one princess running around trying to marry one of my best generals? My finger just didn't want to click that mouse button. 

Dammit.

[Syne]

Depression doesn't provide the main impetus for someone to kill themselves. That's all I'm saying. If I have the flu I don't rush out and rob a bank. "I'm feeling depressed, time to kill myself"

"In general, people try to kill themselves for six reasons:

1. They're depressed. This is without question the most common reason people commit suicide. Severe depression is always accompanied by a pervasive sense of suffering as well as the belief that escape from it is hopeless. The pain of existence often becomes too much for severely depressed people to bear. The state of depression warps their thinking, allowing ideas like "Everyone would all be better off without me" to make rational sense." - https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hap...pt-suicide

---

The Church (pretty much all of them) have always argued against suicide primarily because after millennia of trying to convince people that some form of paradise awaits after death, they are now faced with the conundrum of having to prevent people from wanting to go there a little earlier than intended. Which, you know, if you think about it, would be exactly what all believers would want to do... were they not informed it was a heinous sin.

That's both oversimplified and a gross generalization. Suicide is most often associated with depression...not hope for an afterlife...

So if you're raised in a high suicide rate culture, you're much more likely to approve of suicide...and perhaps consider it yourself.

Syne, when I mentioned that it was a short reply due to lack of motivation then it should be fairly obvious that it was somewhat tongue in cheek. Are you one of these people who needs to be slapped in the face with a cheesy yellow emoji or something?
When I say "somewhat", though, you should bear in mind it seems far easier to convince someone to strap a bomb to themselves and detonate it in a crowded marketplace when they're assured that won't be the end of all things for them. Of course there is a link between suicide and depression... just as, sometimes, there isn't. We could get into a discussion on whether or not extreme religious belief is evidence of a clear and intelligent mind as well, but you appear to be a fairly bright spark so that probably isn't necessary.

With regard to the bit in bold, I could say much the same thing though, regarding oversimplification. I've actually looked into suicide quite a bit, and what you said just there is also a gross generalisation. I broached the subject somewhere before, actually, might have even been on this forum. Was reading a study on suicide rates among young black folks in America. 

Zin actually has a point in that post above mine. That depression is often linked to suicide is not evidence in and of itself that depression is the root cause. It just makes it a more agreeable solution to the sufferer.
You just need to realise that depression is more a symptom than a malady in itself.  


My spell checker picks up the "z" in generalisation as a spelling error. Goddamned yanks. Although I did read somewhere your scientific community, at least, has finally agreed to start pronouncing "aluminium" correctly. It's a start, I suppose. .

My (brief) take on the subject? Suicide isn't a tragedy in itself.  There are 7 billion people in the world, give or take, and quite frankly this "value of human life" thing has gotten entirely out of hand. Objectively speaking, we simply do not need so many of us running around, and if a few want to opt out, it's really no loss to anyone unless an emotional connection is involved. Trump, Clinton, Johnny Depp and Amber Heard could all off themselves tomorrow and, quite frankly, it would probably make me feel a little better... if anything at all. 
If someone like Einstein or Da Vinci were contemplating it, though, I'd probably do my beast to talk them out of it. I prefer quality over quantity.

Well, maybe Amber as well. Face like that, could forgive the woman just about anything. One of the most annoying things about being male is that beauty is a smokescreen for all kinds of evil. Playing medieval 2, I found myself quite joyously assassinating the Pope at every opportunity, but one princess running around trying to marry one of my best generals? My finger just didn't want to click that mouse button. 

Dammit.

Are you telling me you're unaware of things like the lack of tone in text and Poe's law? Why would brevity alone obviously imply levity? Brevity being the soul of wit doesn't imply that all brief things are witty. I don't know your posting style nor idiosyncrasies. And if you were "somewhat" serious, my reply stands. Otherwise, you could leave it at "tongue in cheek", and not feel the need to assert some misplaced characterization. Do you equate religions that encourage suicide bombers with other religions?

I provided citation to support what I said, so how is that a gross generalization? Are you talking about the decreased suicide rates for blacks? I would posit that has something to do with the increased rate in homicide among that demographic. External threat to life has a way of prompting survival instinct.

Did I say depression was always the root cause of suicide? I just gave Zin a link to 6 reasons for suicide, depression being the most common.

So the world is overpopulated? At NYC's density, the world's population could live in Texas. Now I'm sure things seem pretty crowded, living on an island in the UK, but that's a rather provincial view of things. I would guess, based on your cavalier attitude toward life, that you do live in a culture that approves of suicide.

[Zinjanthropos]

.....pervasive sense of suffering........ belief that escape from it is hopeless. The pain of existence .......

and nothing triggered these thoughts, they just happen?

[Syne]

.....pervasive sense of suffering........ belief that escape from it is hopeless. The pain of existence .......

and nothing triggered these thoughts, they just happen?

What else do you think depression does, other than warping people normal thinking patterns?

[Zinjanthropos]

.....pervasive sense of suffering........ belief that escape from it is hopeless. The pain of existence .......

and nothing triggered these thoughts, they just happen?

What else do you think depression does, other than warping people normal thinking patterns?

To all the used, abused, lovelorn, bullied, ruined, widowed, orphaned, traumatized, addicted, sad, lonely, friendless etc. people of the world I can understand why you're depressed. 

I'm done with this pup.