Hospice tales of the paranormal

[Magical Realist]

All I can say is this MR: there isn't a science forum out there that would tolerate this type of topic the way it's presented. If you think I abused you in any way, well it's nothing compared to what would await you elsewhere. I'm being gentle. Post this thread on Science.org and defend it like you are now. You'd be destroyed, unless you know that from experience. My biggest mistake today was assuming you were mature.

Anyways, in an hour I'm gone for a week and when I come back I don't expect things to be any different.

I post fringe topics in another forum called Sci Forums all the time. They have a whole forum dedicated to threads on ufos, ghosts, monsters, and parapsychology. In fact I posted this same thread over there this morning. I am usually attacked by some. But I defend my claims well, which only makes them more frustrated and hostile. Doesn't bother me a abit.

[Zinjanthropos]

All I can say is this MR: there isn't a science forum out there that would tolerate this type of topic the way it's presented. If you think I abused you in any way, well it's nothing compared to what would await you elsewhere. I'm being gentle. Post this thread on Science.org and defend it like you are now. You'd be destroyed, unless you know that from experience. My biggest mistake today was assuming you were mature.

Anyways, in an hour I'm gone for a week and when I come back I don't expect things to be any different.

I post fringe topics in another forum called Sci Forums all the time. In fact I posted this same thread over there. I am usually attacked. But I defend my claims well, which only makes them more frustrated and hostile. Doesn't bother me a abit.

lol.... Why am I not surprised? Well I got that one right.... lmao

[Syne]

People claim all the time that they feel the presence of god and are spoken to by Jesus. Are you saying you believe them...just so long as their perception couldn't have been witnessed by anyone else? What about people who claim to have witnessed miracles? Those could have been observed by others. Do you believe them?

What's the one common denominator with theism? Unless you were born and raised in a cave only to emerge and proclaim God exists, the only way to believe in God is to wholeheartedly accept what another person says is the truth. I'm thinking that rarely if ever will the belief in God just suddenly appear in someone's mind all on its own. You need to hear it from somebody.

Is it the same for NDE's?

Well many religions formed sharing many common themes while isolated from each other, so I don't know what other source we could attribute those to other than someone's mind. Sure, you hear it from someone now, but unless we're postulating aliens came down and gave us religion, it had to have a natural origin with someone...and apparently many someones, geographically and temporally isolated.

But this gets into the origin of religion rather than the veracity of another's claimed experience. I think it's the claimed experience that most relates to NDEs and deathbed phenomena.

---

People claim all the time that they feel the presence of god and are spoken to by Jesus.

Feeling a presence isn't seeing something with your own eyes like a rocking chair rocking on its own or your late mother kissing your dying father. It's just a feeling, and a very subjective one at that.

And what about miracles that are witnessed by many people?

[Magical Realist]

And what about miracles that are witnessed by many people?

What kind of miracles? Jesus' face in a tortilla? Water drops from a statue's eyes? A virgin Mary reflection in a bank window? Let's see these "miracles"..

[Syne]

And what about miracles that are witnessed by many people?

What kind of miracles? Jesus' face in a tortilla? Water drops from a statue's eyes? A virgin Mary reflection in a bank window? Let's see these "miracles"..

Sure, any of those. Do you believe those people have witnessed miracles? If not, why?

[Magical Realist]

And what about miracles that are witnessed by many people?

What kind of miracles? Jesus' face in a tortilla? Water drops from a statue's eyes? A virgin Mary reflection in a bank window? Let's see these "miracles"..

Sure, any of those. Do you believe those people have witnessed miracles? If not, why?

Explain why they are miracles...It's your claim. Support it.

[Syne]

And what about miracles that are witnessed by many people?

What kind of miracles? Jesus' face in a tortilla? Water drops from a statue's eyes? A virgin Mary reflection in a bank window? Let's see these "miracles"..

Sure, any of those. Do you believe those people have witnessed miracles? If not, why?

Explain why they are miracles...It's your claim. Support it.

I don't think they are. But we're talking about why one person should believe another about something they didn't witness. If others should believe your claimed causes of deathbed phenomena, you'd be a hypocrite not to believe similar claims from others.

Or is it possible that both deathbed phenomena and miracles are both prone to the same biased justifications of otherwise mundane or aberrated perception.

[Magical Realist]

I don't think they are. But we're talking about why one person should believe another about something they didn't witness. If others should believe your claimed causes of deathbed phenomena, you'd be a hypocrite not to believe similar claims from others.

I don't think seeing shapes in tortillas and bank windows even remotely compares to seeing your dead mother kissing your dying dad in his bed or seeing a rocking chair rocking violently by itself. But then you knew this didn't you?

[Syne]

I don't think seeing shapes in tortillas and bank windows even remotely compares to seeing your dead mother kissing your dying dad in his bed or seeing a rocking chair rocking violently by itself.

How so? What is the objective difference between seeing a vision of Jesus and seeing an apparition of a loved one? What is the difference between someone seeing a rocking chair inexplicably rocking and someone seeing a statue inexplicably crying or bleeding?

If they don't compare, you're going to have to explain how.

[Magical Realist]

I don't think seeing shapes in tortillas and bank windows even remotely compares to seeing your dead mother kissing your dying dad in his bed or seeing a rocking chair rocking violently by itself.

How so? What is the objective difference between seeing a vision of Jesus and seeing an apparition of a loved one? What is the difference between someone seeing a rocking chair inexplicably rocking and someone seeing a statue inexplicably crying or bleeding?

If they don't compare, you're going to have to explain how.

Figure it out yourself..