Check⁉️ Pride fatigue in the UK? (antiquated fashions)

[Syne]

So you think you know better about how heterosexuals think and feel than heterosexuals themselves?

Obviously better than you do. I've been surrounded by them my whole life.

I've not only been surrounded by them my whole life, I am one of them.
It's the height of hubris to think you know more about how people think and feel than the people who actually experience it.

You're like a white person trying to tell black people how they think and feel. Do you see the problem with that?

Probably not, since it's just the Dunning-Kruger effect.

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities.

[Magical Realist]

I am one of them.

That makes you less an expert on them. An expert stands on the outside and observes. He is not warped by the subjectivity of being what he studies. An expert on whales for example is not a whale but one who studies whales. That's how I can be objective on the matter, precisely because I am not what I am observing.

[Syne]

I am one of them.
...
You're like a white person trying to tell black people how they think and feel. Do you see the problem with that?

That makes you less an expert on them. An expert stands on the outside and observes. He is not warped by the subjectivity of being what he studies. An expert on whales for example is not a whale but one who studies whales. That's how I can be objective on the matter, precisely because I am not what I am observing.

So you do think a white person could tell black people how they think and feel.

You're argument would mean that no sociologist would be an expert in their own culture, no psychologist would be an expert in human behavior, etc..
You're scientific illiteracy means that you don't understand the methods for safeguarding against subjective bias.

The result of your argument is that I, a heterosexual, am a greater expert on homosexuality, just because I'm not homosexual. So when I tell you that you are only gay because you were diddled as a child, you have to accept that as true.

[Magical Realist]

So you do think a white person could tell black people how they think and feel.

Ofcourse if they have studied them all their lives and talked to them.'

You're argument would mean that no sociologist would be an expert in their own culture, no psychologist would be an expert in human behavior, etc..

Sociologists and psychologists spend all their lives studying people who aren't themselves. That's how they are experts.

The result of your argument is that I, a heterosexual, am a greater expert on homosexuality, just because I'm not homosexual.

If you had been surrounded by them your whole life and had studied and observed them you would be an expert on them. I highly doubt you have though being a moralizing homophobe. That ofcourse doesn't make you an expert on homophobes though.

[Syne]

So you do think a white person could tell black people how they think and feel.

Ofcourse if they have studied them all their lives and talked to them.'

You think a white person, who has studied black people all their lives, could tell black people what they think and how they feel.... even when the black people tell them they are wrong?

Seems like some serious white supremacy there, racist.

You're argument would mean that no sociologist would be an expert in their own culture, no psychologist would be an expert in human behavior, etc..

Sociologists and psychologists spend all their lives studying people who aren't themselves. That's how they are experts.

So only by spending "all their lives studying?" No scientific method to help distinguish their bias, earlier in their careers? Do no scientists make any advancements early in their careers?

The result of your argument is that I, a heterosexual, am a greater expert on homosexuality, just because I'm not homosexual.

If you had been surrounded by them your whole life and had studied and observed them you would be an expert on them. I highly doubt you have though being a moralizing homophobe. Maybe you're an expert on those.

Or if I studied existing research on the subject:

Epidemiological studies find a positive association between childhood maltreatment and same-sex sexuality in adulthood, with lesbians and gay men reporting 1.6 to 4 times greater prevalence of sexual and physical abuse than heterosexuals.
...
In other words, there was no elevated frequency of same-sex sexuality in persons with stepparents in early childhood, poverty, parental mental illness or alcohol abuse, except for children who were maltreated or abused.
- https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3535560/

Lesbians and gay men, bisexuals, and heterosexuals who reported any same-sex sexual partners over their lifetime had greater risk of childhood maltreatment, interpersonal violence, trauma to a close friend or relative, and unexpected death of someone close than did heterosexuals with no same-sex attractions or partners.
- https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2978167/

A new study led by researchers at Vanderbilt found that 83% of lesbian, gay, bisexual and queer (LGBQ) individuals reported going through adverse childhood experiences such as sexual and emotional abuse, and worse mental health as adults when compared to their heterosexual peers. - https://news.vumc.org/2022/02/24/study-f...as-adults/

And where I can provide some support for my claim about gays, you have yet to provide any support of your claim about heterosexuals experiencing pride... other than your own bald assertion.


But that's what we can expect from an antisemite, white supremacist, and bigot like you.

[Magical Realist]

You think a white person, who has studied black people all their lives, could tell black people what they think and how they feel.... even when the black people tell them they are wrong?

That's what experts do. They shed light on and help people understand the behavior and attitudes of the people they study. It's been going on for centuries with cultures and ethnicities and races all over the world. Sorry if that bursts your bubble.

So only by spending "all their lives studying?" No scientific method to help distinguish their bias, earlier in their careers? Do no scientists make any advancements early in their careers?

Did I say "only"? I have no idea what you're asking nor interest in sorting out your verbal salad.

Epidemiological studies find a positive association between childhood maltreatment and same-sex sexuality in adulthood, with lesbians and gay men reporting 1.6 to 4 times greater prevalence of sexual and physical abuse than heterosexuals.
...
In other words, there was no elevated frequency of same-sex sexuality in persons with stepparents in early childhood, poverty, parental mental illness or alcohol abuse, except for children who were maltreated or abused.

Makes sense. LGBT kids probably do get more abused and maltreated and bullied for their orientation, especially when their parents are homophobic or transphobic. Why do you find that surprising?

Lesbians and gay men, bisexuals, and heterosexuals who reported any same-sex sexual partners over their lifetime had greater risk of childhood maltreatment, interpersonal violence, trauma to a close friend or relative, and unexpected death of someone close than did heterosexuals with no same-sex attractions or partners.

Further evidence LGBT suffer more abuse and bullying and hatred from homophobes. Duh..

A new study led by researchers at Vanderbilt found that 83% of lesbian, gay, bisexual and queer (LGBQ) individuals reported going through adverse childhood experiences such as sexual and emotional abuse, and worse mental health as adults when compared to their heterosexual peers.

Yep..The long-term effects of being a member of an oppressed and maligned social class. Homophobia is alive and well. All the more reason for outreach programs and mental health resources.

And where I can provide some support for my claim about gays,

What was your claim about gays and what support did you provide for it?

you have yet to provide any support of your claim about heterosexuals experiencing pride... other than your own bald assertion

I think the 9 examples I provided sufficiently proved heterosexual pride here. No need to further belabor it.

[Syne]

You think a white person, who has studied black people all their lives, could tell black people what they think and how they feel.... even when the black people tell them they are wrong?

Seems like some serious white supremacy there, racist.

That's what experts do. They shed light on the behavior and attitudes of the people they study. Sorry if that bursts your bubble.

You're the one living in your white supremacist bubble that assumes you can tell blacks what they think and how they feel. Behaviors are objective (and a moved goalpost you're trying to slip in), but attitudes are wholly subjective and not subject to being externally determined. But you conflate those two to justify your obviously bigoted and racist views.

So only by spending "all their lives studying?" No scientific method to help distinguish their bias, earlier in their careers? Do no scientists make any advancements early in their careers?

Did I say "only"? I have no idea what you're asking nor interest in sorting out your verbal salad.

You repeatedly said "all their lives," without any qualification. If you can't understand these simple questions, you're either illiterate or lying... not worth clarifying either way.

Epidemiological studies find a positive association between childhood maltreatment and same-sex sexuality in adulthood, with lesbians and gay men reporting 1.6 to 4 times greater prevalence of sexual and physical abuse than heterosexuals.
...
In other words, there was no elevated frequency of same-sex sexuality in persons with stepparents in early childhood, poverty, parental mental illness or alcohol abuse, except for children who were maltreated or abused.

Makes sense. LGBT kids probably do get more abused and maltreated and bullied for their orientation, especially when their parents are homophobic or transphobic.

If only you could read worth a damn... you'd see there is no indication of orientation being the driver of abuse.

Our results suggest that from half to all of the increased prevalence of childhood sexual abuse experienced by sexual orientation minorities compared with heterosexuals may be due to the effects of sexual abuse on sexual orientation, possibly through previously proposed pathways: (1) abuse of boys perpetrated by men causes boys to believe they are gay; (2) abuse of girls by men leads them to be averse to sexual relationships with men; (3) abuse survivors may feel stigmatized and different from others and may, therefore, be more willing to behave in ways that are socially stigmatized, including acknowledging same-sex attraction or having same-sex partners.

Lesbians and gay men, bisexuals, and heterosexuals who reported any same-sex sexual partners over their lifetime had greater risk of childhood maltreatment, interpersonal violence, trauma to a close friend or relative, and unexpected death of someone close than did heterosexuals with no same-sex attractions or partners.

Further evidence LGBT suffer more abuse and bullying and hatred from homophobes. Duh..

Again, if you weren't functionally illiterate... you wouldn't be trying to shoehorn your personal, biased justifications into the science.

Our key findings are that (1) lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, and heterosexuals with same-sex sexual partners—but not heterosexuals with same-sex attraction only—had significantly elevated risk of exposure to nearly every event type except war-related traumas; (2) sexual orientation disparities in event exposure were greatest for childhood maltreatment and interpersonal violence; (3) lesbians and gay men, bisexuals, and heterosexuals with same-sex partners experienced their worst event at a younger age;

Unless you have science showing that the majority of LGBT express it at a younger age, but...

While there's no single age at which people express their LGBTQ+ identity, research suggests that many individuals first realize their sexual orientation or gender identity during adolescence or early adulthood, with a growing trend of younger individuals coming out earlier. - Google AI

A new study led by researchers at Vanderbilt found that 83% of lesbian, gay, bisexual and queer (LGBQ) individuals reported going through adverse childhood experiences such as sexual and emotional abuse, and worse mental health as adults when compared to their heterosexual peers.

Yep..The long-term effects of being a member of an oppressed and maligned social class. Homophobia is alive and well.

Again, shoehorning your own bigoted bias... nowhere mentioned in the study.

And where I can provide some support for my claim about gays,

What was your claim about gays and what support did you provide for it?

You're clearly intellectually dishonest and illiterate.

you have yet to provide any support of your claim about heterosexuals experiencing pride... other than your own bald assertion

I think the 9 examples I provided sufficiently proved heterosexual pride here.

You're examples are behaviors, not attitudes. Behaviors are observable actions; attitudes are unobservable feelings. You cannot glean subjective feelings from objective actions alone.


But then, you probably believe you're psychic. 9_9
Anything to justify your bigotry.

[Magical Realist]

"To this day, one of the most common misconceptions I hear in both my classes and from my well-educated non-queer colleagues (a topic that I actually addressed in my 2015 doctoral dissertation) is that being LGBTQ is not always a normal, naturally occurring identity. Instead, it is the result of abuse. I am both terrified and frustrated to no end that this myth—that abuse can “make you gay”—is still very much alive and well. I am in awe of how many therapists, counselors, and educators repeat this myth to me as if it was fact, when, in reality, study after study has disproven it. This is especially disturbing because it shows that many within the social services field are not staying up to date on such research, and that this dangerous information is still being used with patients and clients—potentially causing further trauma and shame.

Social services professionals are not the only ones who fuel this misconception—the hardest rebuttals come from survivors themselves. I will never forget how a male teacher approached me at the end of one of my LGBTQ inclusion trainings at his school to tell me that he disagreed with my stance on abuse and LGBTQ identity. He disclosed that he had been sexually abused by a male relative for years as a child, and that the experience made him question his sexual identity as a teen. I explained that abuse makes every aspect of identity, relationships, and sexuality confusing, because it interrupts our natural development and understanding of self. Yes, bad experiences can make us leery of people who are the same gender, race, and age as our abuser, but they do not make us gay, bisexual, or transgender.

But no matter how many times I correct this assumption, it often looks like my word versus theirs. So instead, let’s look at the research. The following is an excerpt from my doctoral dissertation, “Seen But Not Heard: Pathways to Improve Inclusion of LGBT Persons and Sexual Trauma Survivors in Sexual Health Education”:

“In 2011, a study linking childhood maltreatment and sexual orientation—in which Roberts, Glymour, and Koenen created a list of maltreatment experiences and compared them to the participants who identified with same-sex attraction—was publicized. The authors concluded that they found a strong correlation between their measurements of childhood sexual abuse and same-sex attraction.

Rind, however, critiqued Roberts, Glymour, and Koenen by offering a cross-cultural, cross-species, and evolutionary examination of the findings. Roberts, Glymour, and Koenen based their methodology, by their own acknowledgment, on the assumption that certain life experiences were connected to maltreatment and that the correlation equaled sexual identity causation. Using a cross-cultural lens, Rind pointed to scholars such as Ford and Beach, who noted that same-sex identity ebbs and flows according to the individual’s strength in standing out from the perceived norm, as well the culture’s acceptance of sex-same identity and relationships.

Bailey, Ellingson, and Bailey also critiqued Roberts, Glymour, and Koenen by discussing the genetic variances that may play a part in sexual orientation with cross-examination of other genetic findings on how parental genetic factors influence their child’s sexual orientation.

Brooks looked at the increased vulnerability of gender–atypical boys to sexual abuse through personal reflection and in–field examples. The increase of gender–atypical children and abuse may stem from the increased perception of minimal self-worth and isolation that LGBTQ youth experience. This isolation and shame, coupled with sexual abuse, leads to further confusion, and stops LGBTQ youth from adopting a healthy and prideful sexual identity.

Meta-analysis of LGBTQ youth and parental and community abuse done by Friedman et al. further showed that LGBTQ youth are more likely than gender-conforming heterosexual peers to experience childhood abuse. Using a meta-analysis of school-based studies from 1980–2009, Friedman et al. found that sexual minority individuals were 3.8 times more likely to experience childhood sexual abuse, 1.2 times more likely to be physically abused by a parent or guardian, 1.7 times more likely to be threatened or injured with a weapon or otherwise assaulted by a peer at school, and 2.4 times more likely to miss school because of fear.

Some researchers seem to be drawing conclusions about a perceived connection of abuse leading to sexual identity versus identity leading to an increased likelihood of victimization. These researchers were likely operating within a heteronormative paradigm perspective, believing that heterosexuality is normal or healthy, and thus any deviation from heterosexuality is abnormal. This bias would then lead the researchers to conclusions that see causation instead of correlation.”

You see, the correlation between being a survivor of abuse and queer identity is that being of marginalized identity in general makes you more likely to be targeted by predatory individuals; it cannot however make you change from straight to gay, or from cisgender to transgender. Reverse the narrative for a minute—can we say that a man is straight because he was abused? Or that a person is cisgender because they were assaulted as a child? No. You can’t flip such a script because the true reason why people think that abuse may “cause” queer identity is because they see queerness as an abnormality or pathology. LGBTQ identity is something that must have a root cause because, in the end, it isn’t really right.

As a certified sexologist, scholar, subject matter expert, and advocate, let me set the record straight once and for all: no, abuse cannot make you into something you weren’t born to be. Yes, abuse confuses everything and can make us question who we are and what we want, but it doesn’t change the core of who we are. Being LGBTQ is just as natural, normal, and healthy as being cisgender and heterosexual. Live your truth, fight to overcome the world’s biases, and help continue to educate your colleagues and peers so that this myth can be eradicated, once and for all."----- https://www.spectrumsouth.com/abuse-does...e-you-gay/

You're examples are behaviors, not attitudes. Behaviors are observable actions; attitudes are unobservable feelings. You cannot glean subjective feelings from objective actions alone.

Behavior accurately expresses one's attitude. And being inhibitedly demonstrative of one's heterosexual orientation is the expression of that attitude of pride in public. Hence the 9 examples of straight Pride.

[Syne]

...I am both terrified and frustrated to no end that this myth...
...I explained that abuse makes every aspect of identity, relationships, and sexuality confusing, because it interrupts our natural development and understanding of self.
...the genetic variances that may play a part in sexual orientation with cross-examination of other genetic findings on how parental genetic factors influence their child’s sexual orientation.
...Brooks looked at the increased vulnerability of gender–atypical boys to sexual abuse through personal reflection and in–field examples. The increase of gender–atypical children and abuse may stem from the increased perception of minimal self-worth and isolation that LGBTQ youth experience.
...These researchers were likely operating within a heteronormative paradigm perspective,
...As a certified sexologist, scholar, subject matter expert, and advocate, let me set the record straight once and for all: no, abuse cannot make you into something you weren’t born to be. Yes, abuse confuses everything and can make us question who we are and what we want, but it doesn’t change the core of who we are.

Personal motivated reasoning.
Admits "abuse makes... sexuality confusing."
Hedging language that genetics "may" be a cause... already ruled out in my previously cited studies, and not refuted here.
"Personal reflection" is subjectively biased, and further hedging language about where "abuse may stem from."
Fallacious appeal to the motive of other researchers, again with hedging language "researchers were likely..."
"Sexologist... and advocate" again pointing to personal motivated reasoning. Bare assertion without actual support, which obviously dupes equally motivated reasoning, like yours. Again, admits to identity confusion.

You're examples are behaviors, not attitudes. Behaviors are observable actions; attitudes are unobservable feelings. You cannot glean subjective feelings from objective actions alone.

Behavior expresses one's attitude. And being inhibitedly demonstrative of one's heterosexual orientation is the expression of that attitude of pride in public. Hence the 9 examples of straight Pride.

You can't know that for a fact. Again, unless you're a loon who thinks he's psychic.

And I think you meant "uninhibitedly," but... illiterate.

[Magical Realist]

IOW..your study was thoroughly debunked. As summarized here:

"Meta-analysis of LGBTQ youth and parental and community abuse done by Friedman et al. further showed that LGBTQ youth are more likely than gender-conforming heterosexual peers to experience childhood abuse. Using a meta-analysis of school-based studies from 1980–2009, Friedman et al. found that sexual minority individuals were 3.8 times more likely to experience childhood sexual abuse, 1.2 times more likely to be physically abused by a parent or guardian, 1.7 times more likely to be threatened or injured with a weapon or otherwise assaulted by a peer at school, and 2.4 times more likely to miss school because of fear.

Some researchers seem to be drawing conclusions about a perceived connection of abuse leading to sexual identity versus identity leading to an increased likelihood of victimization. These researchers were likely operating within a heteronormative paradigm perspective, believing that heterosexuality is normal or healthy, and thus any deviation from heterosexuality is abnormal. This bias would then lead the researchers to conclusions that see causation instead of correlation.”

You can't know that for a fact

It is a fact as evidenced by the 9 examples given.