Faith after doubt: Why your beliefs stopped working & what to do about it

#1
C C Offline
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisonescal...2a5ffe12ae

INTRO: The world is beset by fire, flood, famine and pestilence (pandemic) at unprecedented levels. We can see our climate changing, we can feel the weather, but we are still mired in controversy about what to do. Why?

Brian McClaren thinks the problem starts with what he calls toxic orthodoxies: institutionalized systems of belief, whether religious, political or economic, that cannot be questioned. Because to do so would be heresy. “I'm concerned with how faulty religious beliefs and approaches are actually plunging our species towards self destruction,” McClaren told me in an interview. “But that’s equally true of economic orthodoxy.”

His book, Faith After Doubt: Why Your Beliefs Stopped Working And What To Do About It, starts by identifying the crisis of doubt within American religion, and then draws parallels with other sacrosanct American beliefs. Like “the idea that economic growth is the solution to all problems. I think those are those are matters of belief for an awful lot of people who don't consider themselves religious,” says McClaren.

When beliefs don’t work in our reality and people are told not to question them, doubt emerges. For McClaren, doubt is crucial path to growth, both personal and in our thinking. He believes doubt might just save the world, because when people grapple with doubt they often emerge with more empathy, intellectual humility and nuanced thinking.

Crisis in the American Church. McClaren understands why 65 million U.S. adults have dropped out of active religious attendance, and why that number increases by roughly 2.7 million a year. An insider, McClaren was raised in a Christian fundamentalist church, where he was warned that, “An open mind is like an open window, you need a good screen to keep the bugs out.”

Later, he went on to become a pastor, thinking that “more time exposed to hymns and worship songs, more time in Christian fellowship meant my doubts would decrease, not increase.” But after years of listening to people and counseling them in his role, McClaren found himself sharing his parishioners doubts. And that doubt launched him and the church he served for 24 years on a journey of exploration that led to (sometimes painful) growth. Since retiring from the pastorate, he’s continued his work as a spiritual teacher and author.

“Most Christian denominations have painted themselves into a corner,” says McClaren. “They have defined themselves by beliefs. And that leaves them unable to change their beliefs. When you define the boundaries and those boundaries are beliefs, then if you change your beliefs you're out.” In the book, McClaren shares heartbreaking stories of people who were “disfellowshiped” from their communities and even their families when they confessed to doubting some of their church’s beliefs.

“You're setting up people for dishonesty,” says McClaren, “Because in order to maintain their identity in the community, they have to keep saying they believe things that are harder and harder for them to believe.”

His goal is not to give up on religion, but to transform it. “Something is wrong, dangerously wrong, not just in my religion but in all the interconnected religions of the world,” McClaren writes. “People like you and me can play a part in detoxifying and healing our religious traditions,” a process in which “doubt can play a surprisingly constructive role.” (xviii)

Doubt could save the world. For McClaren doubt is a process that can lead to growth and change... (MORE)
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#2
Zinjanthropos Offline
Quote:Later, he went on to become a pastor, thinking that “more time exposed to hymns and worship songs, more time in Christian fellowship meant my doubts would decrease, not increase.” But after years of listening to people and counseling them in his role, McClaren found himself sharing his parishioners doubts


Counselling? Do people run to the pastor for all kinds of advice? What are the pastor’s qualifications, are they trained in the issue you’re troubled with? Is this another wonky belief? 

Seems as if the parishioners don’t have any doubt about the pastor’s ability to counsel. Could that be a bigger problem than doubting your religious.belief? How much power do the high priests have over the flock?

Edit: Just noticed CC’s 3 Reasons/power thread currently in view. Might explain a few things
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#3
Magical Realist Offline
Quote:When beliefs don’t work in our reality and people are told not to question them, doubt emerges. For McClaren, doubt is crucial path to growth, both personal and in our thinking. He believes doubt might just save the world, because when people grapple with doubt they often emerge with more empathy, intellectual humility and nuanced thinking.

I attended a church boarding school in my teen years. All the students there were of the Seventh Day Adventist faith. 4 decades later, I have been able to catch up with a few of my friends on Facebook. One thing that surprises me is that they are all largely still adherents to the faith. I myself abandoned it in my college years as I learned about such things as evolution, philosophy, and psychology. I just assumed everybody would wake up out of their fundamentalist dream like I did. But no. They were still deep into it, anticipating the soon return of Jesus to burn up all the sinners and establish his kingdom on the newly regenerated earth.

I guess I underestimated the effect of having been raised as a kid in a faith in determining one's lifelong worldview. Most WERE raised in the Adventist faith, but my Mom and I came into it after leaving the Baptist faith. That must have made it easier for us to quit the church when new more plausible ideas presented themselves. It was sad really, that their personal journey into spiritual growth remained stunted and chained to the edicts of an out of touch and naively apocalyptic worldview.
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#4
Leigha Offline
Believing in God, and obligatorily going through the motions at a church thinking you may gain 'favor' with God (that's actually a popular sentiment in some US Evangelical churches) are two different things. I think many people 'lose faith' because they often times, have terrible church experiences. I follow this channel on Youtube hosted by a group based in India whereby they are converts to Christianity, and their ''churches'' are so humble, simple, and nothing like some of the Westernized churches. Not all churches in the West are this way certainly, but unfortunately, many churches have turned into businesses...it's more about 'how can we fill this place on Sunday,' instead of just sharing/teaching about God and letting the chips fall where they may.

I live near a large city, and there are several mosques, Jewish temples, and Buddhist worship centers - and I don't think they ''operate'' in the same way as the Christian churches in the area. I have friends of all different religious/spiritual backgrounds, and they say that of course, they have to ''keep the lights on, and water running'' for they do lease the buildings most of the time, but it's just different. To me, this is partially why Christianity is falling away in the West - the churches are run like businesses and that runs counter to anything Jesus taught, really. Following pastors and church ''rules'' etc seems to take precedence in many churches.
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#5
Zinjanthropos Offline
Quote:many churches have turned into businesses


Any business that pays no tax may attract the wrong element to run it. Not saying church hierarchy is using funds for personal reasons but that temptation is going to be there. When the pastor shows up driving a Mercedes on the way to his/her yacht, then you should get a wee bit suspicious.
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#6
Leigha Offline
(Oct 2, 2021 06:17 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote:
Quote:many churches have turned into businesses


Any business that pays no tax may attract the wrong element to run it. Not saying church hierarchy is using funds for personal reasons but that temptation is going to be there. When the pastor shows up driving a Mercedes on the way to his/her yacht, then you should get a wee bit suspicious.

True that.

I think what happens from my observation with a few churches in my local area, is they construct their own ''campus'' and are in debt to the bank for sometimes, millions of dollars. They provide an ''experience,'' and it really has little to do with God, but more to do with people pleasing.

I liken these types of churches to inviting someone to your birthday party, and they're not really coming for you, they're coming for the food, the DJ you may have, and the parting gifts. Many people unfortunately in the West, join churches because they are attracted to the groups, and such...and it renders them vulnerable to objectively questioning if the pastor is a good leader. They're not coming for spiritual edification, and that's why so many churches spring up everywhere because it's so easy to entice people to join, if you have the right food, DJ, and parting gifts. I find these types of environments to be cult-like, tbh. What causes people to leave sometimes, is they may have a falling out with someone or a group within the church...then over time, they leave their faith. That happens a lot, and then studies come out ''people are leaving Christianity by the thousands in the West,'' when really the truer story is...they're leaving churches but broad brushing the entire experience as having to with Christianity, imo.

Nothing wrong with forming communities and groups to bring people together, but it should happen naturally, and not be what leads a church.
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#7
Syne Offline
(Oct 2, 2021 11:51 AM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: Counselling? Do people run to the pastor for all kinds of advice? What are the pastor’s qualifications, are they trained in the issue you’re troubled with? Is this another wonky belief? 
People run to their doctor for anti-depressant meds all the time, even though a vast majority of doctors have no special training in diagnosing or treating mental illness.
Anyone can counsel you. It's on you to decide if their advice is worthwhile. Just remember, doctors are plied by drug reps and pastors live off of tithe. This means that the former is more likely to prescribe unneeded drugs and the latter wants the housewife to keep bringing her husband's money to church (advising an abused wife not to divorce).

(Oct 2, 2021 05:18 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: I myself abandoned it in my college years as I learned about such things as evolution, philosophy, and psychology.
Those are what led me back to theism.
Quote:It was sad really, that their personal journey into spiritual growth remained stunted and chained to the edicts of an out of touch and naively apocalyptic worldview.
Unless you know the details, it's likely many strayed and came back latter, having experienced some amount of personal growth.

(Oct 2, 2021 06:51 PM)Leigha Wrote: They provide an ''experience,'' and it really has little to do with God, but more to do with people pleasing.
...
Nothing wrong with forming communities and groups to bring people together, but it should happen naturally, and not be what leads a church.
Except the only other option to providing people something they want would be to guilt (sin) or scare (fire and brimstone) them into giving. Granted, the people pleasing can go too far, advocating for abortion just to draw leftist parishioners. Church has always been about community. It fails where it's not the source of said community's values.
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#8
Magical Realist Offline
Quote:Those are what led me back to theism.

How did evolution, philosophy and psychology lead you back to theism?
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#9
Syne Offline
(Oct 3, 2021 09:44 PM)Magical Realist Wrote:
Quote:Those are what led me back to theism.

How did evolution, philosophy and psychology lead you back to theism?

Just like the theists who made many of the earliest scientific advancements, the consistency and order of the world is more remarkable the more you understand.
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#10
Magical Realist Offline
(Oct 3, 2021 10:42 PM)Syne Wrote:
(Oct 3, 2021 09:44 PM)Magical Realist Wrote:
Quote:Those are what led me back to theism.

How did evolution, philosophy and psychology lead you back to theism?

Just like the theists who made many of the earliest scientific advancements, the consistency and order of the world is more remarkable the more you understand.

At some point you have to just accept consistency and order as given aspects of reality. The world may be thought to derive its order from God, but where does God's order come from? It's given and assumed right? Just like the atheist sees the order of the world as given and assumed. No matter what our cosmological view, there is always a self-existent substrate of order.
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