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Can we trust the climate scientists?

#1
C C Offline
Can we trust the climate scientists?
https://unherd.com/2021/07/the-corrosive...e-science/

EXCERPTS (Tom Chivers): There’s a problem with writing about science — any science — which is that scientists are human like the rest of us. They are not perfect disembodied truth-seeking agents but ordinary, flawed humans navigating social, professional and economic incentive structures.

Most notably, scientists, like people, are social. If they exist in a social or professional circle that believes X, it is hard to say not-X; if they have professed to believe Y, they won’t want to look silly and admit not-Y. It might even be hard to get research funded or published if it isn’t in line with what the wider group believes.

All this makes it very hard, as an outsider, to assess some scientific claims. You can ask some expert, but they will be an expert within the social and professional milieu that you’re looking at, and who will likely share the crony beliefs of that social and professional milieu. All of which often makes it hard to disentangle why scientists do and say the things they do. Especially when it comes to scientific claims that are politically charged, claims on hot-button topics like race, sex, poverty — and of course climate.

I couldn’t help thinking about that as I was reading Steve Koonin's new book, Unsettled. Koonin is (as it says, prominently, on the front of the book) the “former Undersecretary for Science, US Department of Energy, under the Obama administration”. The publishers are obviously very keen to stress the Obama link: “…under the Trump administration” might not have carried the same heft.

Koonin came to public attention a few years ago, after he wrote a controversial opinion piece for the Wall Street Journal headlined “Climate science is not settled”. It was a response to what he considered the widely held opinion among policymakers and the wider public that, in fact, climate science is settled. His particular concern was that we can’t yet accurately predict what the future climate shifts will be. The book itself is best thought of as the extended version of that op-ed, with added graphs.

We can break down his thesis into, roughly, three areas. One, is that despite “the mainstream narrative among the media and policymakers”, it is hard to be sure that the climate has changed in meaningful ways due to human influence...

[...] Two, he says, climate models are highly uncertain and struggle to successfully predict the past, let alone the future, so we shouldn’t trust confident claims about the climate future. And if we do accept the IPCC’s predictions, they aren’t of imminent catastrophe. Instead, they point to slow change which humanity can easily adapt to, and, broadly speaking, to humanity continuing to prosper.

And three, he continues, there is basically nothing we can do about it anyway, partly because carbon dioxide hangs around in the atmosphere for so long, but mainly because the developing world is developing fast, and using ever more carbon to do so, and actually that’s a good thing.

These are — according to Koonin — all, by and large, only what the IPCC assessment reports and other major climate analyses say. The public conversation, which he says is full of doom and apocalypse and unwarranted certainty, has become unconnected from the state of the actual science. And he blames scientists — and policymakers, the media and the public — for that disconnection.

So is he right? Certainly he has a case when it comes to Point One: I think he is correct that the media narrative about climate change is not especially well correlated with the IPCC’s own central assessments...

[...] That said, there is some fairness in accusing Koonin of cherrypicking ... I think he is right that, if you were to ask the average person in my social circle, you would hear that climate change will lead to catastrophe in the near future. And I think that is overstating what the IPCC reports actually say.

[...] But even if Koonin is right about almost everything — if the best guess of the science is that we’re heading towards things merely getting better more slowly, rather than getting worse — then I think he’s missing a major point. That is, climate change models are uncertain. In fact Koonin claims they’re even more uncertain than we think. So they could easily be erring on the side of optimism... (MORE - missing details)

RELATED: Why science isn't objective
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#2
ellisael Offline
I think it is interesting that this question has not only popped up during a time of observable melting of polar caps but also there is a prompt where 'why science isn't objective' is a related suggested topic. Indeed, the climate change and disaster conversations have always somehow been implicated in the particular scientists' opinions. And this might also be because for a long time the scientific literature on the adverse effects of climate change were purported as paranoia. Take for example this question shared by a student about the worst effects of climate change and also it has been answered in such a earnest manner. I think it is time to wake up to the fact that climate change and its adverse human made effects are our objective truth.
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#3
confused2 Offline
Politics!

A variation on the theme of shooting the messenger is to claim the messenger is a liar. If the messenger is a liar then anything they say can safely be ignored. If it can be shown that the messenger never tells the truth then the truth must be the opposite of the message he (or she) carries.

Simple and effective.
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#4
ellisael Offline
(Aug 11, 2021 12:13 PM)confused2 Wrote: Politics!

A variation on the theme of shooting the messenger is to claim the messenger is a liar. If the messenger is a liar then anything they say can safely be ignored. If it can be shown that the messenger never tells the truth then the truth must be the opposite of the message he (or she) carries.

Simple and effective.

absolutely! that makes ton of sense! 
Shooting the messenger is such an apt analogy too
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#5
Syne Offline
This is the trick they play. First, it was a looming ice age, then a dire global warming, and now world ending climate change. The problem is that everyone generally agrees that the climate has always changed. What people don't agree with is the predictions of a coming apocalypse that repeatedly failed to materialize. Scientists set the stage for that by crying wolf so many times before. Most people don't deny that there is some anthropogenic contribution to the climate. But until the climate starts to change in ways we know it has not in the past, it's nothing to panic over. We've had way more CO² in the atmosphere, and the planet recovered.

No one has to be lying either. They just have to be true believers in the coming apocalypse.
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#6
confused2 Offline
As a point of possible relevance..
25% of the Netherlands* is below sea level. The land reclamation started in the 14th century so where there is a will there is a way - at least in the the 14th century. The lowest point is currently 22 feet below sea level. Assuming they still have access to 14th century technology (they probably do) it would seem likely that a (even) a six foot rise in sea level by (say) 2100 would be a nuisance to them but (probably) not a catastrophe. In my experience (1 native) they are approachable and would probably be willing to explain how they do it. Their language (Dutch) is incomprehensible to the English speaker but some of them may speak enough English to translate.

* Also known as Holland.
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#7
Zinjanthropos Offline
Basically we’re saying that humans have changed the weather but now change it back. I guess people think that since we have the power to change it one way then why not do so in reverse and be done with it. If the climate were to change naturally then we’d be left with the same problem, change it but on purpose. I for one can’t see the weather not changing naturally except we’d rather have a lot of ice but not too much. So if it was getting colder would the cry be to warm it up?
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#8
confused2 Offline
Z. Wrote:So if it was getting colder would the cry be to warm it up?
Probably. In reality the only way we have to change the global temperature is by controlling (or not) the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere - the sun and the greenhouse effect are what does the warming. Once the fossil fuel reserves are gone that's pretty much the end of our ability to change the climate - for better or worse. In the event of cooling we might have deliberately added CO2 in the hope of flipping the planet into a warming phase - we'd have had to trust the scientists that it was worth blowing the fuel in the attempt rather than conserving fuel to keep us warm later.
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#9
Leigha Offline
When politicians started taking over the climate change messaging, that’s when trust started to wane. It became less about scientific findings and more about pinning one political party against another.

Climate change itself (that it’s actually happening) is “believed” by most, but how significant our role is in it, is where the divide is, and I blame politics for that.

And, many people may trust climate scientists, but simply don’t care. Apathy doesn’t necessarily mean lack of trust. So, there seems to be a few issues at play.
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#10
confused2 Offline
Leigha Wrote:When politicians started taking over the climate change messaging, that’s when trust started to wane. It became less about scientific findings and more about pinning one political party against another.
And that (too) is probably irreversible.
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