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Tails Don’t help the Hunted

#1
Zinjanthropos Offline
While waiting for wife in Walmart parking lot I was lucky enough to witness a crow taking on a rat. Thought occurred to me that since birds are descended from dinosaurs then perhaps the bird’s method was the same one used back in the thunder lizard’s days whenever the prey’s bite was more severe than the hunter’s. Sorry but I missed the chance to video because, well, I didn’t think of it.

Crow grabbed & yanked rat’s tail many, many times and managed to jump aside from every lunge the rodent made towards it. Eventually the bird wore the rat out and after 15-20 minutes delivered the kill shots to the head/body, followed by a good shaking and eventually flight with rat in the beak. Kind of like a mongoose or roadrunner hunting a snake. 

Found one article where palaeontologists discovered a T-Rex tooth in the tail of a fossilized duck bill but that could be expected result from a chase. I’d like to know if teethmarks or wounds delivered to the tails of the big meat eaters by smaller dinos have been found. Do you think the big carnivores were immune from being preyed upon by something with less weaponry but cunning and agile enough to make lunch of one?
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#2
C C Offline
(May 20, 2021 04:39 AM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: [...] I’d like to know if teethmarks or wounds delivered to the tails of the big meat eaters by smaller dinos have been found. Do you think the big carnivores were immune from being preyed upon by something with less weaponry but cunning and agile enough to make lunch of one?


Marks in big carnivores have been found, but they might have been cannibalistic encounters with their own kind or other heavyweight species.

Utahraptors, velociraptors and small troodons (that possibly hunted in packs) could probably have done some slicing damage to T-Rex, Mapusaurus, Carcharodontosaurus, Majungasaurus, Giganotosaurus, etc. But less likely to show up in the bones of the latter.

Plus, they surely hunted and scavenged big vegetarians and omnivores rather than deliberately pursuing potentially costly skirmishes with large, competitor flesh-eaters. Occasional starvation could be an incentive to do otherwise, yet cannibalism was likely the first choice on the desperation menu. (Especially with a malnourished brain equating to less social coordination and group empathy for pack hunting.)
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#3
Zinjanthropos Offline
(May 23, 2021 12:20 AM)C C Wrote: Marks in big carnivores have been found, but they might have been cannibalistic encounters with their own kind or other heavyweight species.

Utahraptors, velociraptors and small troodons (that possibly hunted in packs) could probably have done some slicing damage to T-Rex, Mapusaurus, Carcharodontosaurus, Majungasaurus, Giganotosaurus, etc. But less likely to show up in the bones of the latter.

Plus, they surely hunted and scavenged big vegetarians and omnivores rather than deliberately pursuing potentially costly skirmishes with large, competitor flesh-eaters. 

Would natural selection favour a shorter tail for prey animals? I don’t understand why a rat would need a long tail if it doesn’t help against a predator like a crow that’s attacking from the rear....maybe I’m sounding like Dawkins there with designer creator mistakes, but occasionally one might see a rat that has lost its tail but able to function.

Thinking of African Plains animals like an impala for instance, not much of a tail for grabbing there. I can think of more mammals without long tails than I can of lizards with same. How many lizards have short or no tails and if there are only a rare few,  then why is that? 

I can understand the need for balance, swimming or flight, and a prehensile tail but for a rat built so close to the ground? What other functions do tails serve that makes them so necessary to have, even though it provides a predator a fairly safe area to attack?
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#4
confused2 Offline
The word on the street (actually google) is that tails are useful things to have (balance, signalling, entertainment etc.). The problem comes when wearing a tail in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I don't recall seeing a rat on its own out in the open until the last few years. Could the ready availability of human food have caused them to change their behaviour so they sneak out to the nearest rubbish bin at any time of day or night. In fact pickings would probably be best during the day so a further incentive to be out during the day.
In my time as a model shop owner I used to sell miniature rats. They were supplied as black (or brown) rats and you could convert them into the other sort (whichever) by snipping a few mm off their tails.
Edit - little plastic rats not actual rats.
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