How does selfness happen?

Everything's external. All of reality. The moment we become conscious of something, it becomes external or "other". And whatever is unconscious is internal. Externality is inherently phenomenal. Internality is inherently representative.

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Quote:In everyday conversation contexts, the pronoun "I" is ultimately referring to "this body" because that public object is what's available to other observers (not the internal phenomenal affairs traditionally construed as belonging to an immaterial soul or whatever).

This common sense belief in the self as the body falls apart when we consider its public nature as necessarily being a thing or an itself. Even when discussed by others, the body is never attributed with a who status but only with a what status. And so it is always assumed as a thing, as an instrument used BY the self and belonging TO the self --to the invisible who or "I" everlurking in its depths. This is likely where the notion of the soul comes from.

Yes, yes, we get it. You don't understand an internal locus of identity... like Derrida.

Quote:Does empathy make a difference? Without empathy we might believe we are alone, special, unique whereas as with it we are just another member of a herd.

The recognition of sameness in the other does indeed bestow a certain commonality and collective participation to the self. In knowing the other as another instance of oneself, one easily believes oneself as being an instance of a group or abstract category. The "I" slips from being a "me" to being a "we", losing all sense of identity as a singular self in a sea of anonymous clones--mere representatives or members of that abstract category. When soldiers go to war they are trained to think like this. Comradery, teamwork, brotherhood, common nationality. An assimilated cog in a machine. And the enemy likewise becomes a mere abstract category--an evil collective of borgs or an abstract "they" that needs to be unquestionably destroyed. No more I's and you's. Just we and they composed of depersonalized units.

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(Mar 3, 2026 11:30 PM)Syne Wrote: Yes, yes, we get it. You don't understand an internal locus of identity... like Derrida.

We can't identify with anything other than something external. In fact our whole life is but a succession of identifying with one role or persona after another-- objective selves we perform for others that allow us to get by in the world. The "I" is the real source of selfness as well as non-selfness. It is who identifies and ceases to identify--the face behind its many masks.

I don't know if folks are born with empathy or it develops (or not) as they are socialized into the human race. Without empathy a lot of the things people do will seem strange, meaningless and perhaps even frightening.
Trump runs at 110% sincerity for the benefit of people who might normally miss the cues - whether you find that helpful or grotesque is probably a fair indication of where you sit on the empathy curve.
'Taxation is theft' .. any guesses where that sits on the empathy curve?
Memememe - what else is there?

(Mar 4, 2026 09:08 PM)Magical Realist Wrote:

(Mar 3, 2026 11:30 PM)Syne Wrote: Yes, yes, we get it. You don't understand an internal locus of identity... like Derrida.

We can't identify with anything other than something external. In fact our whole life is but a succession of identifying with one role or persona after another-- objective selves we perform for others that allow us to get by in the world. The "I" is the real source of selfness as well as non-selfness. It is who identifies and ceases to identify--the face behind its many masks.

Yes. You really don't need to keep harping on about it. It's very clear that you do not understand, nor believe, in an internal locus of identity (a foundational psychological concept). It doesn't take much experience with very young children to realize that they are born with very different personalities that usually follow them through life, barring significant trauma. Unless you believe in astrology, there would have to be something internal prior to external experience.

Thinking the self is only a mask would seem to denote autism, BPD, etc..

The concept of identity as a "mask" is a widespread phenomenon observed across psychological, sociological, and neurodivergent contexts. While nearly everyone modifies their behavior to fit specific social situations—such as job interviews or meeting a partner's parents—certain groups experience their identity as a constant, defensive, or performative façade.

Psychological & Neurodivergent Profiles
For many, masking is a survival or coping mechanism used to avoid social rejection, stigma, or judgment.

Autistic and ADHD Individuals: Masking (or "social camouflaging") is highly prevalent in these communities. These individuals may suppress natural behaviors, such as stimming, or memorize social scripts to appear more neurotypical and blend into a neurotypical society.
Individuals with Personality Disorders: Those with Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) may mask intense emotions to avoid conflict, while individuals with Narcissistic Personality Disorder or sociopathic traits might use masks to maintain social acceptance or gain trust.
People with Mental Health Conditions: Those experiencing depression or anxiety often wear a "smiling mask" (sometimes called smiling depression) to cover inner hopelessness and avoid appearing vulnerable or being a burden.
Individuals with History of Trauma: People who have experienced abuse or harsh criticism may adopt a mask as a protective shield to keep themselves safe from further negative reactions.
- Google AI

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(Mar 4, 2026 09:50 PM)confused2 Wrote: I don't know if folks are born with empathy or it develops (or not) as they are socialized into the human race. Without empathy a lot of the things people do will seem strange, meaningless and perhaps even frightening.
Trump runs at 110% sincerity for the benefit of people who might normally miss the cues - whether you find that helpful or grotesque is probably a fair indication of where you sit on the empathy curve.
'Taxation is theft' .. any guesses where that sits on the empathy curve?
Memememe - what else is there?

How is an obvious statement of fact selfish? You trade years of your life for the money you earn. Having it taken by threat of force (which will materialize if you try to refuse) is quite literally taking years of your life. Whether you want to call that theft, slavery, or something else, can you really call it charity if it's not voluntary? Or do you just get so beat down by life that you simply accept things, no matter if they harm you? Managed decline?

Yeah, I'd probably have to impugn others to justify that to myself too. 9_9

But look at all the leftists right now protesting against the Iran strikes. They have no empathy for the deaths and oppression experienced by Iranians for decades. Same for Venezuelans in poverty under a dictator, Israelis living under threat for decades, etc.. Just because the your don't agree with the proposed remedy for suffering doesn't mean empathy doesn't exist. You just refuse to see empathy in people you refuse to empathize with. @_@

Uh no...we all wear masks and adopt personae all the time. It is how we adapt to different situations and function in our many social roles. Even when we aren't wearing a mask at work or at a party, we are still wearing one at home with our family, playing the role of the husband or father or the son or the brother. You yourself are adopting a public persona right now, as "Syne" who has specific traits, performance, and history but only in the context of this forum. It is a mask or persona that conceals your personal life offline and probably compensates for the lack of attention or mental stimulation you experience there.

"We develop our personality not only so that it becomes rooted in our nature but also so that it is adequate to the social and environmental demands around us. Jung named this socially adapted aspect of the personality “persona”. The origin of this Latin word goes back to the masks worn by actors in antiquity. The mask, or persona, looks like ourselves, but it is largely influenced by the outer world; therefore, it is a kind of compromise between the individual and society. Persona is how we appear to other people and how we want to be seen by other people. We have various personae during our lifetime, according to each developmental phase, our gender identity, social status, and so on. As Jung says, “The persona is a complicated system of relations between the individual consciousness and society, fittingly enough a kind of mask, designed on the one hand to make a definite impression upon others, and, on the other, to conceal the true nature of the individual.“1 Jung also calls the persona an “outer attitude” in comparison with an “inner attitude”2 and emphasizes that the persona is not individual but collective.

Commonly, in private life, a person takes off his/her social mask and at home wears a more intimate mask. Thus, e. g. a shrewd businessman can be a gentle father with his family. But when the persona is too rigid, or if one strongly identifies with it, then one keeps it on even in private life, and their family might be afflicted or negatively influenced by it. A father who cannot take off his mask of a rigorous teacher when he is at home can sometimes behave in a way that may humiliate his children."

https://iaap.org/jung-analytical-psychol...persona-2/

(Mar 4, 2026 10:41 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: Uh no...we all wear masks and adopt personae all the time. It is how we adapt to different situations and function in our many social roles.

Learn to read:

(Mar 4, 2026 10:23 PM)Syne Wrote: While nearly everyone modifies their behavior to fit specific social situations—such as job interviews or meeting a partner's parents—certain groups experience their identity as a constant, defensive, or performative façade.

See the differentiation made there? @_@
No? Still just don't understand an internal locus of identity? 9_9

Quote:For many, masking is a survival or coping mechanism used to avoid social rejection, stigma, or judgment.

Get that? That's you claiming wearing masks is something only mentally ill and autistic people do. Which is a lie and an attempt to morally condemn it. We all do it all the time. You're doing it right now. Actually the mentally ill and autistic are those who DON'T wear masks in public and are unskilled in playing social roles. It's what gets them in trouble and condemned as non-functioning misfits. And there's no such thing as "internal locus of identity." The who that identifies cannot itself be identified with as there are no outer traits for it to identify with. It isn't objective and can only be actualized thru expression not performing. Get an education.

(Mar 5, 2026 12:45 AM)Magical Realist Wrote:

Quote:For many, masking is a survival or coping mechanism used to avoid social rejection, stigma, or judgment.

Get that? That's you claiming wearing masks is something only mentally ill and autistic people do. Which is a lie and an attempt to morally condemn it. We all do it all the time. You're doing it right now. Actually the mentally ill and autistic are those who DON'T wear masks in public and are unskilled in playing social roles. It's what gets them in trouble and condemned as non-functioning misfits. And there's no such thing as "internal locus of identity." The who that identifies cannot itself be identified with as there are no outer traits for it to identify with. It isn't objective and can only be actualized thru expression not performing. Get an education.

Thanks for proving you can't read:

(Mar 4, 2026 10:23 PM)Syne Wrote: While nearly everyone modifies their behavior to fit specific social situations—such as job interviews or meeting a partner's parents—certain groups experience their identity as a constant, defensive, or performative façade.

See where it says "nearly everyone" and then "certain groups"? That literally means not "only mentally ill and autistic people." Illiterate. 9_9