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Random thoughts/comments

Secular Sanity Offline
(Nov 22, 2020 09:38 PM)Leigha Wrote: I might tune in to 60 Minutes later, they’re doing a segment on Covid - “long lingering symptoms.”

Could be autoantibodies.

Some Covid Survivors Have Antibodies That Attack the Body, not Virus

…At some point, the body’s defense system in these patients shifted into attacking itself, rather than the virus, the study suggests. The patients are producing molecules called “autoantibodies” that target genetic material from human cells, instead of from the virus.

…This misguided immune response may exacerbate severe Covid-19. It may also explain why so-called “long haulers” have lingering problems months after their initial illness has resolved and the virus is gone from their bodies.

…The results were reported Friday on the preprint server MedRxiv, and have not yet been published in a scientific journal. But other experts said the researchers who carried out the study are known for their careful, meticulous work, and that the findings are not unexpected because other viral illnesses also trigger autoantibodies.

…“I’m not surprised, but it’s interesting to see that it’s really happening,” said Akiko Iwasaki, an immunologist at Yale University. “It’s possible that even moderate to mild disease may induce this kind of antibody response.”
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Syne Offline
For all the, often disingenuous, talk of following the science, you'd think more people could resign themselves to accepting things like Covid and autoantibodies as crucial to natural selection. Humans have been so successful for so long that we've been able to protect the survival of the "less fit", very often keeping them in the gene pool. As such, we may have unintentionally bred these very weaknesses, and nature may be catching up.
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Secular Sanity Offline
(Nov 22, 2020 11:25 PM)Syne Wrote: For all the, often disingenuous, talk of following the science, you'd think more people could resign themselves to accepting things like Covid and autoantibodies as crucial to natural selection. Humans have been so successful for so long that we've been able to protect the survival of the "less fit", very often keeping them in the gene pool. As such, we may have unintentionally bred these very weaknesses, and nature may be catching up.

Good thing Syne isn't in charge. We'd all be saying our last goodbyes to our parents and grandparents.

Geez, what’s wrong with you? Is the loss of the election getting to you? You probably have a few genetic defects yourself, little guy.

We search for cures, deary, because we’re predisposed to act cooperatively, remember? And "Fit" doesn’t mean physically fit. We’re going to have a vaccine soon and autoantibodies provide you with the first line of defense. They're useful in the removal of cell debris and contribute to the homeostasis of the immune system. They’re the unsung heroes of our immune system.
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Syne Offline
(Nov 23, 2020 12:48 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote:
(Nov 22, 2020 11:25 PM)Syne Wrote: For all the, often disingenuous, talk of following the science, you'd think more people could resign themselves to accepting things like Covid and autoantibodies as crucial to natural selection. Humans have been so successful for so long that we've been able to protect the survival of the "less fit", very often keeping them in the gene pool. As such, we may have unintentionally bred these very weaknesses, and nature may be catching up.

Good thing Syne isn't in charge. We'd all be saying our last goodbyes to our parents and grandparents.

Geez, what’s wrong with you? Is the loss of the election getting to you? You probably have a few genetic defects yourself, little guy.

We search for cures, deary, because we’re predisposed to act cooperatively, remember? And "Fit" doesn’t mean physically fit. We’re going to have a vaccine soon and autoantibodies provide you with the first line of defense. They're useful in the removal of cell debris and contribute to the homeostasis of the immune system. They’re the unsung heroes of our immune system.

Really? Simply acknowledging natural selection is now equivalent to the Hitler salute (Hitlergruß)? That's definitely an anti-intellectual YOU problem, deary.
Nor does "accepting things like Covid" mean ignore it, let it run absolutely rampant, or not attempt to find treatments, vaccines, and cures, as I've already stressed the importance of protecting the most at-risk, who definitely need a vaccine and better treatments. See, as usual, you just presume the worst and use that to justify actual ad hominems, e.g. "genetic defects". That makes you a bad person...that you then feel the need to project on others. Don't do that. Be better.

"Fitness" in natural selection literally means physical fitness, both of genotype and phenotype. You seem to be conflating autoantibodies with polyreactive antibodies...your citation only calling the latter "first responders of the innate immunity" (your "first line of defense"). They are not the same thing. You need to read further than your confirmation bias.
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Secular Sanity Offline
(Nov 23, 2020 02:17 AM)Syne Wrote:
(Nov 23, 2020 12:48 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote:
(Nov 22, 2020 11:25 PM)Syne Wrote: For all the, often disingenuous, talk of following the science, you'd think more people could resign themselves to accepting things like Covid and autoantibodies as crucial to natural selection. Humans have been so successful for so long that we've been able to protect the survival of the "less fit", very often keeping them in the gene pool. As such, we may have unintentionally bred these very weaknesses, and nature may be catching up.

Good thing Syne isn't in charge. We'd all be saying our last goodbyes to our parents and grandparents.

Geez, what’s wrong with you? Is the loss of the election getting to you? You probably have a few genetic defects yourself, little guy.

We search for cures, deary, because we’re predisposed to act cooperatively, remember? And "Fit" doesn’t mean physically fit. We’re going to have a vaccine soon and autoantibodies provide you with the first line of defense. They're useful in the removal of cell debris and contribute to the homeostasis of the immune system. They’re the unsung heroes of our immune system.

Really? Simply acknowledging natural selection is now equivalent to the Hitler salute (Hitlergruß)? That's definitely an anti-intellectual YOU problem, deary.
Nor does "accepting things like Covid" mean ignore it, let it run absolutely rampant, or not attempt to find treatments, vaccines, and cures, as I've already stressed the importance of protecting the most at-risk, who definitely need a vaccine and better treatments. See, as usual, you just presume the worst and use that to justify actual ad hominems, e.g. "genetic defects". That makes you a bad person...that you then feel the need to project on others. Don't do that. Be better.

"Fitness" in natural selection literally means physical fitness, both of genotype and phenotype. You seem to be conflating autoantibodies with polyreactive antibodies...your citation only calling the latter "first responders of the innate immunity" (your "first line of defense"). They are not the same thing. You need to read further than your confirmation bias.

Natural selection is about adaptation and reproduction. It’s a description of what happens. It doesn’t tell us how to behave. We don't need to accept anything. Besides, the biggest risk factor is older adults, who are no longer reproducing, err.

I think you purposely say shit like this when you're bored.   Dodgy

Quote:While the phrase "survival of the fittest" is often used to mean "natural selection", it is avoided by modern biologists, because the phrase can be misleading. For example, survival is only one aspect of selection, and not always the most important. Another problem is that the word "fit" is frequently confused with a state of physical fitness. In the evolutionary meaning "fitness" is the rate of reproductive output among a class of genetic variants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_of_the_fittest

And no, they're natural autoantibodies.
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Syne Offline
(Nov 23, 2020 03:00 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote:
(Nov 23, 2020 02:17 AM)Syne Wrote: Really? Simply acknowledging natural selection is now equivalent to the Hitler salute (Hitlergruß)? That's definitely an anti-intellectual YOU problem, deary.
Nor does "accepting things like Covid" mean ignore it, let it run absolutely rampant, or not attempt to find treatments, vaccines, and cures, as I've already stressed the importance of protecting the most at-risk, who definitely need a vaccine and better treatments. See, as usual, you just presume the worst and use that to justify actual ad hominems, e.g. "genetic defects". That makes you a bad person...that you then feel the need to project on others. Don't do that. Be better.

"Fitness" in natural selection literally means physical fitness, both of genotype and phenotype. You seem to be conflating autoantibodies with polyreactive antibodies...your citation only calling the latter "first responders of the innate immunity" (your "first line of defense"). They are not the same thing. You need to read further than your confirmation bias.

Natural selection is about adaptation and reproduction. It’s a description of what happens. It doesn’t tell us how to behave. We don't need to accept anything. Besides, the biggest risk factor is older adults, who are no longer reproducing, err.

I think you purposely say shit like this when you're bored.   Dodgy
So I specifically point out "the most at-risk", and, what, you presume I don't mean the elderly? What other subpopulation is "the most at-risk"? Hint, there ain't one. And that's exactly why I advocate for isolating the elderly and letting the young and reproductive get on with life, without lock downs artificially contributing to their deaths. See how that works? In nature, the fit do not die before they can reproduce in order to save the unfit or no longer reproducing. I know it's hard for you, but do try to keep up.

No one, except you, said anything about natural selection telling anyone how to behave. That's just another of your pointless straw men/ignorant or intentionally malicious assumptions. You somehow get all this bullshit from one little word, "accepting". That's a lot of projecting presumptions on your part.

Quote:
Quote:While the phrase "survival of the fittest" is often used to mean "natural selection", it is avoided by modern biologists, because the phrase can be misleading. For example, survival is only one aspect of selection, and not always the most important. Another problem is that the word "fit" is frequently confused with a state of physical fitness. In the evolutionary meaning "fitness" is the rate of reproductive output among a class of genetic variants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_of_the_fittest

Fitness (often denoted w {\displaystyle w} w or ω in population genetics models) is the quantitative representation of natural and sexual selection within evolutionary biology. It can be defined either with respect to a genotype or to a phenotype in a given environment. In either case, it describes individual reproductive success and is equal to the average contribution to the gene pool of the next generation that is made by individuals of the specified genotype or phenotype. The fitness of a genotype is manifested through its phenotype, which is also affected by the developmental environment. The fitness of a given phenotype can also be different in different selective environments.
...
The term "Darwinian fitness" can be used to make clear the distinction with physical fitness.[1] Fitness does not include a measure of survival or life-span; Herbert Spencer's well-known phrase "survival of the fittest" should be interpreted as: "Survival of the form (phenotypic or genotypic) that will leave the most copies of itself in successive generations."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitness_(biology)

If the young and reproductive die due to the consequences of lock downs, they are failing to pass on their genotypic/phenotypic traits. And all to save those who cannot. According to science, that is wholly irrational.

Quote:And no, they're natural autoantibodies.
Again, who said autoantibodies were artificial? You're arguing your own useless straw men.
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Secular Sanity Offline
(Nov 22, 2020 11:25 PM)Syne Wrote: For all the, often disingenuous, talk of following the science, you'd think more people could resign themselves to accepting things like Covid and autoantibodies as crucial to natural selection. Humans have been so successful for so long that we've been able to protect the survival of the "less fit", very often keeping them in the gene pool. As such, we may have unintentionally bred these very weaknesses, and nature may be catching up.

How should we interpret this?
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Syne Offline
(Nov 23, 2020 04:54 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote:
(Nov 22, 2020 11:25 PM)Syne Wrote: For all the, often disingenuous, talk of following the science, you'd think more people could resign themselves to accepting things like Covid and autoantibodies as crucial to natural selection. Humans have been so successful for so long that we've been able to protect the survival of the "less fit", very often keeping them in the gene pool. As such, we may have unintentionally bred these very weaknesses, and nature may be catching up.

How should we interpret this?

I've already told you, if you'd bothered to read. And the funny part is that that post was meant to be agreeing with you. Since I've previously advocated for keeping the economy open while isolating and protecting the most vulnerable, e.g. elderly, it should be obvious that the above is wanting to minimize death and harm to those still fit and capable of reproduction. It should be fairly uncontroversial that we regularly maintain contributions to the gene pool that would not survive in nature without a prosperous, modern society. And since the left are the ones making noises about "following the science", this should be a fairly easy point of agreement. But that's just it. The left doesn't care one wit about science if it doesn't serve their political goals.
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Secular Sanity Offline
(Nov 23, 2020 05:33 AM)Syne Wrote:
(Nov 23, 2020 04:54 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote:
(Nov 22, 2020 11:25 PM)Syne Wrote: For all the, often disingenuous, talk of following the science, you'd think more people could resign themselves to accepting things like Covid and autoantibodies as crucial to natural selection. Humans have been so successful for so long that we've been able to protect the survival of the "less fit", very often keeping them in the gene pool. As such, we may have unintentionally bred these very weaknesses, and nature may be catching up.

How should we interpret this?

I've already told you, if you'd bothered to read. And the funny part is that that post was meant to be agreeing with you. Since I've previously advocated for keeping the economy open while isolating and protecting the most vulnerable, e.g. elderly, it should be obvious that the above is wanting to minimize death and harm to those still fit and capable of reproduction. It should be fairly uncontroversial that we regularly maintain contributions to the gene pool that would not survive in nature without a prosperous, modern society. And since the left are the ones making noises about "following the science", this should be a fairly easy point of agreement. But that's just it. The left doesn't care one wit about science if it doesn't serve their political goals.

You've been pushing for herd immunity. When have we achieved herd immunity without a vaccination?
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Syne Offline
(Nov 23, 2020 04:57 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: You've been pushing for herd immunity. When have we achieved herd immunity without a vaccination?

Herd immunity was recognized as a naturally occurring phenomenon in the 1930s when it was observed that after a significant number of children had become immune to measles, the number of new infections temporarily decreased, including among the unvaccinated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity


Herd immunity can also be reached when a sufficient number of people in the population have recovered from a disease and have developed antibodies against future infection. For example, those who survived the 1918 flu (influenza) pandemic were later immune to infection with the H1N1 flu, a subtype of influenza A.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-cond...t-20486808

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