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Believe women

#1
Syne Offline
What does "believe women" mean?
What does it mean to you?
Is there any definitive source that defines it?

Is it in opposition to due process?
Or is it just a step everyone trivially agrees on in due process, i.e. "listen to women"?
If so, then it's just a false rallying cry against a complete straw man.
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#2
Zinjanthropos Offline
(Oct 8, 2018 02:31 AM)LSyne Wrote: What does "believe women" mean?
What does it mean to you?
Is there any definitive source that defines it?

Is it in opposition to due process?
Or is it just a step everyone trivially agrees on in due process, i.e. "listen to women"?
If so, then it's just a false rallying cry against a complete straw man.

A spinoff from 'listen to your mother'??? I'll have to 'ask the guys what they think'?
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#3
Secular Sanity Offline
(Oct 8, 2018 02:31 AM)Syne Wrote: What does "believe women" mean?
What does it mean to you?
Is there any definitive source that defines it?

Is it in opposition to due process?
Or is it just a step everyone trivially agrees on in due process, i.e. "listen to women"?
If so, then it's just a false rallying cry against a complete straw man.

I think it means that people feel that the high focus on false reports may give us the false impression that they’re more common than they actually are. There should be a stiffer penalty for filing a false report but I don’t know how we could handle them without making it even more difficult for genuine victims to come forward. I do think there’s a huge problem with this strong presumption of guilt, though. I realize that everyone responds to traumatic events in their own way but this whole PTSD thing is overused and out of control. I think it was Dawkins, who made the claim that some incidences are worse than others. I tend to agree with that.
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#4
Zinjanthropos Offline
OK, is the thread is a spinoff from the Kavanaugh interrogation/inquiry or whatever it's called? I don't keep up with politics much, especially USA version. So believe the women means we take the alleged female victim's words as gospel during a rape/sexual misconduct inquiry, is that it? Not being facetious, I honestly don't know what the thread subject is about. However if Syne wants to call it a false rallying cry while SS compares it to false reports then I'm OK with both. Fortunately I've never been accused, falsely or otherwise of anything unlawful so I can only imagine how it would affect someone mentally or why people would deliberately falsely accuse but i'm not naive enough to think it never happens. Sounds a bit like Mein Kampf. 

Quote:I realize that everyone responds to traumatic events in their own way but this whole PTSD thing is overused and out of control. I think it was Dawkins, who made the claim that some incidences are worse than others, and I tend to agree with that.

Oh I don't know about that. My late departed F-I-L spent 5 years fighting the Germans only to be immediately sent to Indonesia after the war for another 4-5 years. I saw him lose his mind a few times, especially when confronted with someone of Indonesian descent, all they had to do was look the part. Never diagnosed with PTSD but I'm pretty sure he had it. Only when he approached 90 did he open up about what he saw, said gov't ordered returning soldiers not to talk about it. But I think Dawkins is right, 10 years of war or 10 minutes, depends on the situation and what you're made of I guess.
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#5
Yazata Offline
(Oct 8, 2018 02:31 AM)Syne Wrote: What does "believe women" mean?

In the current political climate, it means this: Whenever a woman makes a claim of some kind of sexual impropriety against a man (ranging from rape to "sexual harassment"), and if there is isn't any corroborating evidence and it's just 'he said/she said', one must always take the woman's side and believe her account.

Quote:What does it mean to you?

It's crying victim in hopes of exerting power. That combination is like catnip to the female psychology.

Quote:Is there any definitive source that defines it?

I expect that many feminist tracts talk about it, though not quite in the same terms that I've framed it. You are unlikely to find much reference to it in mainstream ethical theory outside feminist writings.
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#6
C C Offline
(Oct 8, 2018 03:34 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: OK, is the thread is a spinoff from the Kavanaugh interrogation/inquiry or whatever it's called?


Informally undermining the supposed justice / rights precondition of "presumed innocent until proven guilty" is a potential, serious side-effect of using call-out vigilantism to help reduce the traditional obstructions and problems of sexual-assault reporting, rape stigma / myths, and rape schedule (those and more items all subsumed under the concept of rape culture).

Presumption of guilt - sexual violence & harrassment

~
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#7
Yazata Offline
(Oct 8, 2018 03:34 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: OK, is the thread is a spinoff from the Kavanaugh interrogation/inquiry or whatever it's called?

I think so, though since it was Syne that started this thread, you need to ask him.

It seems to be an ethical inquiry into a slogan used by many of the anti-Kavanaugh demonstrators.

Quote:I don't keep up with politics much, especially USA version.

It will drive you crazy if you pay too much attention to it.
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#8
Zinjanthropos Offline
(Oct 8, 2018 05:33 PM)Yazata Wrote:
(Oct 8, 2018 03:34 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: I don't keep up with politics much, especially USA version.

It will drive you crazy if you pay too much attention to it.

I've been receiving at least a half dozen emails daily from the Tea Party, always some story accompanied by a donation request. I have tried to remove them, filter them out, but nothing worked. Now today I once again tried to remove myself from their mailing list and maybe, just maybe I was successful. They sent me an email saying I've been unsubscribed (ya, I know...an email). The big problem is...

I'M A CANADIAN CITIZEN LIVING IN CANADA. Big Grin
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#9
confused2 Offline
Many years ago I was part of a group objecting to the introduction of the poll tax in the UK. The group included some rather dodgy characters both male and female. While attempting to break into a court to disrupt proceedings I saw one of the women push a policeman and fall on the flaw - both she and a few other members of the group started shouting at the policeman "You pushed me/her over.". I made clear I was a witness and would not be a party to such tactics. We didn't get into the courtroom and I was not invited to any more demonstrations. So I have first hand evidence that females will use 'being female' for political ends.

Where does that leave Ford and Kavanaugh? As it happens the US probably wants a judge that would put his hand over a woman's mouth to stop her screaming. You might even wonder why someone wouldn't just let a woman scream - that would come back to there being people who wouldn't be a party to such tactics. Maybe the backlash against #metoo is #screamallyoulikecosthereain'tnobodyislistening.
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#10
stryder Offline
In regards to Presumption of innocence (wikipedia.org). In the UK the courts can actually be manipulated into the inverse (Where it's guilt until proven innocent)

I know of this from a instance where I was taken to court for "Television license evasion". The reality of the matter at the time was I was staying at my aunts flat, I wasn't paying rent and it wasn't a permanent address/ She had a television (her television) in the flat which happened to be on standby (She also subsequently had a TV license although it was for multiple addresses). I opened the door to a detector guy that promptly wrote me up as illegally watching it.

The first court instance just went straight to fine, so I took it to appeal. In the appeal the Judge railroaded it into literally "just pay the fine" which I would do (since at the time I was young and had spent all my money getting to the appeal court miles away from where I live.) They didn't treat me as a innocent until proven guilty, in fact quite the opposite, the burden of my innocence actually fell on me.

Eventually I wrote to the Licence operators about the subject and even they stated it should never have gotten to court. (they quashed it)

In the case of US allegations, there is a myriad of possibilities:
  • Women were creeped out by Kavanaugh. (He didn't necessarily have to do anything or had done anything, they would of just figured the worst of him) Unfortunately the news is constantly filled with the darkest acts committed by the worst people. It plays upon peoples minds so that every dark corner a felon awaits and every guys is potential out to do harm etc.
  • People might be concerned about what Kavanaugh stands for (an extreme example, 'will he back the order to euthanize people if Trump asked him too?' etc.), after all Trump has literally stuck his finger in many of the proverbial government/judicial American pies. This means he's solidifying his control over what is otherwise suppose to be democratic (at least that's what I assume the US people want from their government). Will he end up backing Trumps play? who knows, other than if there was evidence of wrong doing being used to manipulate his sincerity in regards to his position, the baptism by fire from the people and the press will make damn sure nothing can be used to blackmail due to the nature of "Double Jeopardy" rulings. (I bet Trump wishes he'd done that with Stormy Daniels)
  • Something happened, but why bring it up now? Currently 'shit flinging' is definitely a mantra of those who bide their time and target when there is an agenda that they want to play out.
  • He could quite easily be guilty as sin, however if that was the case wouldn't there have been other victims, or victims that talked amongst themselves. Would he have not found himself shunned by people in the shadows of what he supposedly did? In most real world cases, it's never one victim or one instance, as such perverted sexual nature is what to a rapist is how they get off.

It's just more bunkem in the long run. In four years time he'll likely not even have his name on the door as people get shuffled by someone else etc.
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