The first American born saint

Religious miracles pose something of a problem for an atheist like myself. I don't believe in God or Jesus or the saints, and yet there are several documented cases of amazing miraculous events occurring in the lives of certain people. Healings, visions, apparitions, manifestations of light, rose petals, and stigmata all cluster around these people, suggesting something of a Fortean nature occurring that defies our current models of understanding. Here's an interesting case for example. See what you think..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w_cG0lKV0A

I do believe in god and Jesus, but I don't believe in these sorts of miracles. I do believe in the power of the mind over the body, the power of positive suggestion, and the placebo effect...all of which have scientific corroborating evidence.

I think we are dealing here with the physical externalization of an intense mental state. Conversion disorder is an example of bodily disorder brought on by stress, often mimicking the symptoms of real diseases. Hysterical pregnancies is another. Other more "paranormal" examples might include spontaneous human combustions, possessions, and even scars on alien abductees. I think we underestimate the power of belief on the physical body.

Correction: SHC's don't correspond to any belief at all.

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Good overview of this phenomenon including pro's and con's of possible explanations.

http://weekinweird.com/2009/09/14/stigma...r-miracle/

"As shocking as the claims of stigmata may be, it is obvious that in some cases, those afflicted are experiencing something very real that has yet to be properly identified and categorized. Whether that affliction is of a religious nature or a scientific one has yet to be distinguished and leaves the door open for continuous debate. If we cannot prove stigmata is caused by a legitimate disorder in the mind or body, is it reasonable for some to conclude that in those few extreme cases, perhaps there are genuine miracles at work? Or, as Humes suggested, are we then giving up all reason to believe in a hoax?"

Is God more wicked after the healing? Well when the sickness returns there's always some demons to blame....

http://www.bibleissues.org/healing_lost.html

Never doubt you're cured. You'll be in more trouble than ever.

Excerpt from above article: 

Quote:to "find out if they were really healed" is a "sign of doubting their healing" - the very unbelief which will cause them to get back sick. So they choose to "just believe" they were healed - even if they weren't. 

Good grief! Pascal's Wager is part of the healing.

(Dec 18, 2017 06:24 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: I think we are dealing here with the physical externalization of an intense mental state. Conversion disorder is an example of bodily disorder brought on by stress, often mimicking the symptoms of real diseases. Hysterical pregnancies is another. Other more "paranormal" examples might include spontaneous human combustions, possessions, and even scars on alien abductees. I think we underestimate the power of belief on the physical body.

Conversion disorders strictly pertain to the nervous system. While symptoms of "possession" are likely mental illness, conversion disorder cannot explain things like scars.

(Dec 18, 2017 08:41 PM)Syne Wrote:

(Dec 18, 2017 06:24 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: I think we are dealing here with the physical externalization of an intense mental state. Conversion disorder is an example of bodily disorder brought on by stress, often mimicking the symptoms of real diseases. Hysterical pregnancies is another. Other more "paranormal" examples might include spontaneous human combustions, possessions, and even scars on alien abductees. I think we underestimate the power of belief on the physical body.

Conversion disorders strictly pertain to the nervous system. While symptoms of "possession" are likely mental illness, conversion disorder cannot explain things like scars.

i didn't say stigmata is caused by conversion disorder. I said conversion disorder is an example of physical externalization of mental states, particularly stress.

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(Dec 18, 2017 07:36 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: Is God more wicked after the healing? Well when the sickness returns there's always some demons to blame....

http://www.bibleissues.org/healing_lost.html

Never doubt you're cured. You'll be in more trouble than ever.

Excerpt from above article: 

Quote:to "find out if they were really healed" is a "sign of doubting their healing" - the very unbelief which will cause them to get back sick. So they choose to "just believe" they were healed - even if they weren't. 

Good grief! Pascal's Wager is part of the healing.

You can find some really hoaky shit on personal religious websites.

(Dec 18, 2017 10:22 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: i didn't say stigmata is caused by conversion disorder. I said conversion disorder is an example of physical externalization of mental states, particularly stress.

But is conversion disorder even a physical externalization of a mental state? It is a psychiatric disorder because we cannot find a physical cause, and for all we know, it is just how the mind chooses to deal with existing nerve impulses. IOW, that's a very large leap from one to the other.

That's exactly what it is---the physical externalization of stress, depression, or emotional trauma as a bodily sympton. How it is induced is irrelevant. People experience paralysis, fits, blindness, pain, and tremors because of their mental state. It's an example of what I'm talking about.

No, when the symptom is isolated to the nervous system, unless we can show actual nervous disruption/malfunction (which would be a medical diagnosis), it's all a matter of how the brain interprets/handles nerve impulses. Blindness and pain are interpretations of nerve inputs, while paralysis, fits, and tremors are handling of nerve outputs.
Now if you're talking about mind over brain, then we'd agree (because that's neuroplasticisty). But that's still very far from bodily manifestations like stigmata.

(Dec 18, 2017 11:56 PM)Syne Wrote: No, when the symptom is isolated to the nervous system, unless we can show actual nervous disruption/malfunction (which would be a medical diagnosis), it's all a matter of how the brain interprets/handles nerve impulses. Blindness and pain are interpretations of nerve inputs, while paralysis, fits, and tremors are handling of nerve outputs.
Now if you're talking about mind over brain, then we'd agree (because that's neuroplasticisty). But that's still very far from bodily manifestations like stigmata.

Just shut up. I'm not arguing about petty shit you just make up off the top of your head. It's the physical externalization in the body of extreme mental states. Just like stigmata.