Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

(Jan 3, 2017 09:14 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]If you can't find one, just say so. Don't expect others to look for support of your claims for you.

I don’t, but I do expect people to read what they post, and to back up their own claims. Your information served as a catalyst. Well, that and Tiassa's advice, who told me not to judge a book by its cover.

Read up, Syne. It’s your topic.

If you cannot cite anything to support your own claim, you cannot rationally expect busy people to do that for you. If you genuinely want to discuss something specific, cite it. Otherwise, you're only trying to "score points" by arguing strawmen no one asserted.

I did read my own links, including only finding sources hidden behind a pay wall. So since I cannot scrutinize the methodology of that study, I cannot make claims on its veracity. Now if you are happy to confirm your bias with only the say so of science journalists (who we all know have a propensity to exaggeration), that's both your prerogative and no substantial support for the argument you seem like you want to be making.

Science journalism is the cover you seem to be judging by. Come back when you've found something worth discussing.

Nice try.  I'm not going to do the work for you.  I already did mine.  Now, it's time for you to back up your own claim.  It's your topic and you're the one who posted the video. 

Chop-chop.

Again, what claim? Where? You're the one who seemed to claim transgenders have less suicidality/mental illness after GRS. I've already supported my claim of the suicide rate for transgenders in general, regardless of GRS. If you want to make some point, make it already. If you really want to keep wasting everyone's time, I'll just write you off as a troll and ignore you.

(Jan 4, 2017 03:11 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]Again, what claim? Where? You're the one who seemed to claim transgenders have less suicidality/mental illness after GRS. I've already supported my claim of the suicide rate for transgenders in general, regardless of GRS. If you want to make some point, make it already. If you really want to keep wasting everyone's time, I'll just write you off as a troll and ignore you.

That sounds like a good plan to me.  After your failed attempt to conflate body integrity identity disorder, gender reassignment surgery, abortion, and assistant suicide, I could use a break.

(Sep 7, 2016 04:22 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]If the rationale for having requirements for GRS, transabled, or assisted suicide is to protect people from making decisions they cannot competently consent to, why no such precautions for rash pregnancy decisions that involve the ending of life without its consent?

What gets me, though, is that you reopened it again, three months later with that video, only to prove what exactly? That suicide rates are higher for transgender people?  Well, no shit, Sherlock.

From your link...

People know that transgender people are at a higher risk of suicide, but why this risk is higher is often not understood by the public, or misused by people who wish us further harm. The statistic that 40% of transgender people have attempted suicide is used all the time to justify all sorts of things that have absolutely zero basis in science.

Why transgender people are at risk is something that has actually been studied in great detail by psychologists and sociologists. They have found many of the same factors increase risk across multiple peer reviewed studies.

• Rejection by friends and family increases suicide risk
  
• Discrimination increases suicide risk
  
• Physical abuse increases suicide risk
  
• Being seen as transgender or gender non-conforming increases suicide risk
  
• Internalized transphobia increases suicide risk
  
• Intersecting minority identities increases suicide risk
  

Notice a pattern here? None of these risks for suicide are about being transgender. They’re about what is being done to transgender people. And therein lies the rub.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with being transgender .

There is something horribly, horribly wrong with the way we as a culture treat transgender people.

The Truth About Transgender Suicide

No worries. Like you said, you can always play with the unicorn.  Have fun!

(Jan 3, 2017 07:28 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]If the suicidality is not directly related to the gender dysphoria, then the doctor could still be enabling the mentally ill.

is not Gender identity simply a fashion of comercialisation ?
what gender you are genetically has no relation to how you interact in society as a gender stereo type.
gender stereo types are taught as a culture.

the very premise of defining someone to be more masculine or more feminine based on their actions is stating that genetics has no real relative effect. only observable actions.
which as a process of observation is purely self serving by the observer to NEED someone to change their behaviour to suit the observers desire to have gender stereo types...

thus subjectivity Vs objectivety as the observer to dictate terms of compliance in a social manner.

thus the mental illness is infact subjective at least to say it resides in the gender disphoria as much as the observer claiming one state to be required for complaince.

(Jan 4, 2017 06:10 AM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote: [ -> ]

(Jan 3, 2017 07:28 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]If the suicidality is not directly related to the gender dysphoria, then the doctor could still be enabling the mentally ill.

is not Gender identity simply a fashion of comercialisation ?
what gender you are genetically has no relation to how you interact in society as a gender stereo type.
gender stereo types are taught as a culture.

the very premise of defining someone to be more masculine or more feminine based on their actions is stating that genetics has no real relative effect. only observable actions.
which as a process of observation is purely self serving by the observer to NEED someone to change their behaviour to suit the observers desire to have gender stereo types...

thus subjectivity Vs objectivety as the observer to dictate terms of compliance in a social manner.

thus the mental illness is infact subjective at least to say it resides in the gender disphoria as much as the observer claiming one state to be required for complaince.

While not all behaviors considered gendered are a result of sex (genetics), there are many physical, psychological, and cognitive sex differences that hold regardless of gender identity and do contribute to stereotyped differences. For example, higher promiscuity and aggression in males and monogamy and agreeableness in females hold regardless of gender identity, as well as conform to most cultural stereotypes of sex.

So genetic sex does have a verifiable impact on social interaction, regardless of gender identity. It is a naive oversimplification to say that all masculine/feminine behaviors are social constructs. Gender dysphoria can then be defined as gendered behavior that mimics a gender stereotype while still displaying genetic sex differences.

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(Jan 4, 2017 05:00 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]

(Jan 4, 2017 03:11 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]Again, what claim? Where? You're the one who seemed to claim transgenders have less suicidality/mental illness after GRS. I've already supported my claim of the suicide rate for transgenders in general, regardless of GRS. If you want to make some point, make it already. If you really want to keep wasting everyone's time, I'll just write you off as a troll and ignore you.

That sounds like a good plan to me.  After your failed attempt to conflate body integrity identity disorder, gender reassignment surgery, abortion, and assistant suicide, I could use a break.

What a transparent straw man. Comparing is not conflating, deary. Saying these pose similar ethical considerations does not mean that are identical.

Quote:

(Sep 7, 2016 04:22 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]If the rationale for having requirements for GRS, transabled, or assisted suicide is to protect people from making decisions they cannot competently consent to, why no such precautions for rash pregnancy decisions that involve the ending of life without its consent?

What gets me, though, is that you reopened it again, three months later with that video, only to prove what exactly? That suicide rates are higher for transgender people?  Well, no shit, Sherlock.

From your link...

People know that transgender people are at a higher risk of suicide, but why this risk is higher is often not understood by the public, or misused by people who wish us further harm. The statistic that 40% of transgender people have attempted suicide is used all the time to justify all sorts of things that have absolutely zero basis in science.

Why transgender people are at risk is something that has actually been studied in great detail by psychologists and sociologists. They have found many of the same factors increase risk across multiple peer reviewed studies.

• Rejection by friends and family increases suicide risk
  
• Discrimination increases suicide risk
  
• Physical abuse increases suicide risk
  
• Being seen as transgender or gender non-conforming increases suicide risk
  
• Internalized transphobia increases suicide risk
  
• Intersecting minority identities increases suicide risk
  

Yet these same factors in similar minority populations do not cause an equivalent suicide risk. And like I've already told you, any study hidden behind a pay wall is of dubious validity. Accepting their results can only be an appeal to authority, since we cannot see the actual data.

Those that I have seen suffer the serious limitations of respondent-driven sampling.

Quote:

Notice a pattern here? None of these risks for suicide are about being transgender. They’re about what is being done to transgender people. And therein lies the rub.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with being transgender .

There is something horribly, horribly wrong with the way we as a culture treat transgender people.

Since similarly treated minorities do not have an equivalent suicide rate, the difference would seem to be accounted for by maladaptive coping skills. While physical violence is never excused, many people face rejection, social bullying, etc..

But all this is a red herring. The ultimate cause does not matter. Even if your assertions do end up being correct, GRS would have to improve mental illness and suicidality to be unqualifiedly advised. And even then, prerequisites would still be necessary to determine commitment and competency.