(Sep 9, 2016 04:36 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]Syne Wrote:And if you rely on the "it's her body" argument then you should have equal minimum requirements for abortion as GRS. It's not a personal choice to kill an innocent and unconsensual human life (which in any other circumstance is murder). It's ethically unjustified by personal choice. Yes, you are not responsible to save others, but you are responsible for the life you chose to create, knowing the possible results of sex. It's not that life's fault that you made the choice to take that risk. But instead of taking responsibility for your own choice, you'd rather kill. How can you justify that ethically?
It is ethical to hold people accountable for their own free choices. Aside from rape, pregnancy is a result of a consensual choice.
Did you finish watching the video that you posted?
The Jonathan Haidt video? Yes.
Quote:Let’s pretend for a moment that you represent your gender and I, mine. Let’s imagine for a moment that I hold the keys to the gate.
If you want your genes to enter the through the gates then I would suggest that you stop condemning my gender. Stop acting as though my gender is betraying the family structure and avoiding responsibilities. Stop acting as though we are the evil traitors. When you portray us as bad people and having violated moral rules then you’re less likely to empathize with us, and this especially true for men.
Convince your gender that it is inappropriate to have sexual intercourse without love and without an exclusive permanent commitment. Tell them that they must provide, not only monetary means of support for our offspring, but love and nurture, as well. Tell them to stop pressuring us into having abortions. Tell them that we want the same rights as them, not just here, but throughout the world. Tell them to stop raping us. Tell them to stop projected their shame onto us. Tell them how it will affect their reputation if they fail to do so. My gender has the same expectations of freedom and happiness as yours. Don’t try to change us, change the path. Set things up to allow our moral emotions to work as they were originally designed to.
Luckily, I don't consider you a desirable mate. And you seem to have missed where I wasn't condemning your gender...just your ideology (hopefully you don't think all women are liberal). Conservative women tend to take much more responsibility for their own choices. You do seem to have taken the points about loyalty and care of the innocent somewhat personally. Neither Haidt nor I have said you are bad people...only that you have bad priorities which lead to bad motivations. The basic, universal (found naturally in all cultures) foundations of morality are all equally important, rather than myopically focusing on one to the large exclusion of the others.
This seems to be why you have trouble reconciling when two ethical considerations come into conflict. Your considerations are heavily weighted toward care/harm of victims, with little regard for proportionality, loyalty, authority, sanctity, and liberty.
Um...women have sex without love too. And abortion has made that choice much more consequence-free. I would be ecstatic to condemn men who pressure a woman to have an abortion
if abortion laws were not so misandrist. If, like a woman, a man could opt out of responsibility for a child after sex, then no man would have reason to pressure any women to have an abortion. But as it stands, a woman can opt out after sex, but the man is legally and financially responsible to abide by the woman's choice...with no recourse, input, or even parental rights in some cases.
Women have the same rights as men here, and seem unwilling to seriously fight for women worldwide. What we hear most from feminists are proven false rape allegations and wage gaps, while we hear little to nothing about fighting how Sharia law denigrates women elsewhere. Get women to fight for egalitarianism throughout the world (including supporting war, when needed), and then come tell me what the men (who fight and die in those wars) need to do. Conservatives do have strong taboos against rape. Notice that even if rape culture does exist, it is supposedly strongest on college campuses, where students overwhelmingly identify as liberal.
College freshmen are more liberal
The problem with changing the path of a liberal is that liberal reputation is a facade. You don't need to actually do something to earn the esteem of fellow liberals. You only need to virtue-signal and "spread awareness" (which only proselytizes others into virtue-signalling), rather than actually doing something that makes a tangible difference in the real world. Gestures divorced from results are, at best, pointless and, at worst, detrimental. Liberal reputation has cocooned itself in an exclusive echo chamber, where it is immune to the sort of shaming that could hope to right its path.