Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

(Jul 9, 2025 10:41 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]That's like saying well Hamas is killing them, so our killing them doesn't matter. And don't you dare bring up our killing of them or we will accuse you of antisemitism.

But you're not just bringing up collateral damage in war. You're claiming genocide. That's the difference that makes the claim antisemitic.

Quote:Meanwhile:

You have an anecdote from one anonymous soldier. Even if we take it at face value, the IDF has repeatedly worked very hard to let the civilians know about their no-go zones and targets in advance, even when that gives Hamas forewarning, through announcements, flier drops, etc. (which your article states). Suicide bombers are only effective because you can't tell they are armed until it's too late. Surveys have repeatedly proven that the vast majority of Gazans literally support terrorism, and many are propagandized to do so... including training kindergartners. Yes, you have to make judgement calls... on whether you think it's a risk to the lives of those under your command to apprehend people who could be suicide bombers. If you feel mercy at the wrong time, your own people will die. That's the cold hard fact of war. There's no war crime in holding and defending a combat position during war. And yes, if any significant percent of Gazans wanted to end the war, they could give up Hamas and their hostages.

Quote:You're claiming genocide.

What else would you call the planned imprisonment and starvation and shooting and bombing of 2 million innocent people of the same ethnicity based on nothing more than what a terrorist organization has done? The Jewish people don't have a monopoly on the use of that word.

Quote:You have an anecdote from one anonymous soldier.

Think I'll trust the IDF soldier's honest firsthand assessment of the situation over your mindless talking points.

Quote:Surveys have repeatedly proven that the vast majority of Gazans literally support terrorism, and many are propagandized to do so... including training kindergartners.

What surveys? The ones IDF soldiers were passing out to Palestinians while shooting at them for supposedly being suicide bombers? When were these surveys conducted and by whom? How was it worded and who tallied it? IDF commanders?

Lie. If the IDF were "imprisoning, starving, shooting and bombing" Gazans, there would already be none left. Remember, the vast majority of Gazans voted for and support all the actions of Hamas. So it's not just "what a terrorist organization has done." It's what the duly elected governing body of Gaza has done, with the almost total support of its civilians. You always seem so eager to make excuses for terrorist supporting civilians and to vilify those protecting the only democracy in the Middle East. That blatant bias is antisemitism.

You trust ONE anonymous soldier only because it affirms your antisemitism.

See, you're antisemitism is so strong you can't be bothered to check the facts for yourself... for fear they'd undermine your hatred.

Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found.
- https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-eas...023-12-14/

Get that? Not by the IDF or even Israel sources. By a respected Palestinian polling institute. Surveys conducted two months after Oct 7th.

The Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) (Arabic: المركز الفلسطيني للبحوث السياسية والمسحية) is a non-profit Palestinian research organization and think tank based in Ramallah established for "advancing scholarship and knowledge on immediate issues of concern to Palestinians in three areas: domestic politics and government, strategic analysis and foreign policy, and public opinion polls and survey research". - wiki

You were saying, you ignorant piece of shit?

I've never heard of killing and starving and bombing the shit out of a people based on their opinions taken in a poll. A transparent attempt to make it look all clean and official. Those filthy Gazans. Does that mean they were responsible for Hamas attack? Does agreeing with their attack make them terrorists? No..not unless Israel just needed a pretext for doing what it was already doing. Let's see, the poll was taken in December. That's 2 months of relentless bombing and shooting by IDF as described below in your own article. What do you expect the majority sentiment of Gazans would be on Israel? And did they include in their survey Gazans under the age of 18?

"At least 18,608 Palestinians, including thousands under 18, have been killed in the Gaza war, according to the enclave's health ministry. The majority of Gaza's 2.3 million residents have been displaced by widespread Israeli strikes. The PCPSR poll found that 44% of Gazans say they have enough food and water for a day or two, and 56% say that they do not. Almost two-thirds of Gazan respondents - 64% - said a member of their family had been killed or injured in the war."

Those people were and are still innocent. They had nothing to do with Hamas' attack and you know it. You just need something to justify Israel's warcrimes and genocidal actions. And spuing childish vulgarities does nothing to justify that.

Abetting/supporting terrorists makes you a potential threat. Only the suicidal would ignore that fact. Electing and supporting the Hamas attack makes you a threat. Just like supporting a murder committing murder makes you an evil person. Supporting terrorism just means you're too big of a pussy to do it yourself. Now that same source says:

6 May 2025
Favorability of the October 7 attack, the belief that Hamas will win the war, and support for Hamas continue to decline, but the overwhelming majority is opposed to Hamas disarmament and does not believe that release of the hostages will bring an end to the war. Nonetheless, about half of Gazans support the anti-Hamas demonstrations and almost half want to leave the Gaza Strip if they could. Support for the two-state solution remains unchanged but support for armed struggle drops. - https://pcpsr.org/en/node/997

Half is about the support Hamas had in Palestine in 2021:

Poll shows ‘dramatic’ surge in Palestinian support for Hamas after Gaza fighting
15 June 2021
Over half of survey respondents say the Islamist terror group is ‘most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people,’ versus less than 15% percent who prefer Fatah

So if your argument, that the IDF caused this sentiment in Gaza, is true, why would that same sentiment be declining now?

Do you even hear yourself? "The enclave's health ministry" is propaganda run by Hamas. You fucking moron. You'll make any excuse to support evil.

Just answer the simple question. Do you really think agreeing that a terrorist act was ok makes you guilty of that terrorist act? That it justifes killing you for that terrorist act?

There are a lot of different people in America. Do you think those who believe 911 was justified should be arrested and taken to prison? Do you grasp at all the difference between thought and action? The difference between being incarcerated or killed for your beliefs instead of your actions? And have you ever heard of "thought crime"?

I did, if you could only read. Agreeing with a terrorist act makes you a threat. Thinking 911 was justified makes you a threat, since you can somehow justify the mass murder of innocent people. We don't arrest people who have not broken the law, but in Gaza, we're talking about a battlefield in wartime. On a battlefield, you must have a heightened awareness of possible threats. If you don't act proactively to potential threats, you die. No one kills a Gazan for "thought crimes." They kill them because they are potential threats, like being in an announced military-secured area.

It's like going into a bad part of town late at night. Even if you haven't been told it's dangerous, there are indicators of dangerous neighborhoods, just like there are indicators of IDF military presence. You can tell you're taking a risk by being there. And since the soldiers do have to be there, they will take every possible precaution... because they don't want to die.

Seems like you have to dehumanize Israelis to not understand the simple, human desire not to die. And you has to infantilize Gazans to assume they lack any instinct or common sense for self-preservation. Antisemitic armchair quarterbacking by ignoring the most basic realities of a wartime situation.

Quote:I did, if you could only read. Agreeing with a terrorist act makes you a threat. Thinking 911 was justified makes you a threat, since you can somehow justify the mass murder of innocent people.

No it doesn't. Having a belief doesn't make you a threat. Only acting on it does. People justify their beliefs for the mass murder of people all the time. The dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima. The bombing of Dresden and Berlin. And you are doing it now with Gaza. What crime have the Gazans committed that justifies their killing? The killing of Native Americans to steal their land. Does calling it "war" somehow justify it? How? These people aren't attacking anyone. They're not armed. They're not invading Israel. They're just trying to live their lives. Men, women, and children citizens trying to find enough food to survive. If IDF wants to kill Hamas go after them. But don't mass murder the millions of Gazans who have not and are not posing a threat to anyone. That's called genocide. And it is motivated by a decades old contempt of Israel for the Palestinians.

No, you're conflating the mass murder of innocent people versus attacks against wartime adversaries. Gaza is a war, that Gazans started (Hamas are Gazans elected by Gazans). Soldiers don't magically know who is or isn't armed. Suicide bombers make it a point not to be detected, so they can reach their intended target. Gazan civilians are still abetting Hamas and their hiding of hostages. That's not innocent. Many freed hostages report being held by Gazan families, in their homes. And if Gazans are not armed, they should readily recognize which Gazans are armed. But as I've repeatedly shown you, from Palestinians sources, Gazans largely support Hamas and their terrorism. Again, that makes them a threat. What part of the civilians abetting and hiding Hamas don't you understand? How many times do people have to tell you Hamas uses civilians as human shields?

The Hamas-run health ministry death figures are not independently verifiable and have been proven to exaggerate combatant vs non-combatant deaths. But again, every war has collateral damage. This one just happens to have the least, according to verifiable information.

Only antisemites are so eager to uncritically believe Hamas.

Quote:No, you're conflating the mass murder of innocent people versus attacks against wartime adversaries.

No I'm not. Since the Geneva Convention targeting civilians even during a so-called "war" is now considered a war crime and nothing short of mass murder. The GC rules state clearly that during a war civilians are to be protected and provided medical care not killed. IDF soldiers may get to kill other Hamas soldiers, but they do not get to shoot Gazan citizens. There's no excuse for it. And trying to justify it is trying to justify genocide.

"The evidence of what is happening in Gaza starts with the numbers. On 7 October 2023 Hamas broke into Israel, killing 1,200 people. More than 800 were Israeli civilians. The others were members of Israel's security forces, first responders and foreign workers. Around 250 people, including non-Israelis, were dragged back into Gaza as hostages.

Figures vary slightly, but it is believed that 54 hostages remain in Gaza, of whom 31 are believed to be dead.

Collating the huge total of Palestinian casualties inside Gaza is much more difficult. Israel restricts movement inside Gaza and much of the north of the strip cannot be reached.

The latest figures from the ministry of health in Gaza record that Israel killed at least 54,607 Palestinians and wounded 125,341 between the 7 October attacks and 4 June this year. Its figures do not separate civilians from members of Hamas and other armed groups.

According to Unicef, by January this year 14,500 Palestinian children in Gaza had been killed by Israel; 17,000 are separated from their parents or orphaned; and Gaza has the highest percentage of child amputees in the world.

Israel and the US have tried to spread doubt about the casualty reports from the ministry, because like the rest of the fragments of governance left in Gaza, it is controlled by Hamas. But the ministry's figures are used by the UN, foreign diplomats and even, according to reports in Israel, the country's own intelligence services.

When the work of the ministry's statisticians was checked after previous wars, it tallied with other estimates.

A study in medical journal The Lancet argues that the ministry underestimates the numbers killed by Israel, in part because its figures are incomplete. Thousands are buried under rubble of destroyed buildings and thousands more will die slowly of illnesses that would have been curable had they had access to medical care.

Gaza's civilians had some respite during a ceasefire earlier this year. But when negotiations on a longer-term deal failed, Israel went back to war on 18 March with a series of huge air strikes and since then a new military offensive, which the prime minister says will finally deliver the elusive "total victory" over Hamas that he promised on 7 October 2023.

Israel has put severe restrictions on food and aid shipments into Gaza throughout the war and blocked them entirely from March to May this year. With Gaza on the brink of famine, it is clear that Israel has violated laws that say civilians should be protected, not starved.

A British government minister told the BBC that Israel was using hunger "as a weapon of war". The Israeli Defence Minister, Israel Katz, said openly that the food blockade was a "main pressure lever" against Hamas to release the hostages and accept defeat.

Weaponising food is a war crime."

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0r1xl5wgnko