Where we are born is only a matter of luck

[Leigha]

Why do some American citizens feel entitled to keep out those who wish to become American citizens, as well? Of course, we have to apply safety measures. Those who wish to harm us, shouldn't be permitted to become citizens, but for those who are seeking a better life, why do so many citizens (we won't go into politics for the sake of this thread) wish to make this a challenge? 

I ask this as someone who was only born in America by luck, or fate. Or some other such thing. My grandparents and father came from other countries, and became citizens. But, for me? I was born in the United States, by sheer luck.

It is only fate or luck that separates any of us from those who live on the other side of our borders. 

Calling myself an American isn't an accomplishment, I didn't have to do anything. It was all just luck.

Any one of us could have been born in a war torn country, and would be now seeking asylum. I guess I have a difficult time understanding aggressive nationalist ideals, when being born in this country is only a matter of fate, luck or happenstance. I'm grateful to live in the United States, where I have many freedoms, and take nothing for granted. But, I didn't have to work for these freedoms. They have always just been there for me. My birthright? 

Imagine having to put forth a diligent effort...to become a citizen of the US. I can't relate, because luck gave me this life. And some days, I feel bad about the unfairness of it all - that where we are born, is only a matter of luck.

What are your thoughts?

[Syne]

People fought and died to make the US the freest, most prosperous country in the world. So why should those who flee their own "birthright", instead of fighting for it, be welcomed on no more merit than their lack of patriotic loyalty to their birth country? Fleeing is the easy way out, but then many do not accept refuge in the first country they hit. They are greedy enough to accept nothing less than the US. That doesn't sound like it's out of pure necessity. And now that those at the southern border have to wait in Mexico, many are going home, rather than seek asylum there. The US has fewer restrictions on immigration than Australia, the UK, Canada, and even Mexico...where you have to prove your income for even a temporary visa and prove much more income for permanent residence. So we are exceedingly generous.

Being an American is a blessing, and one which those Americans who hate our country are foolish enough to squander. Bring in enough of the third-world and the US starts to look like one...like several California cities for instance.

[C C]

[...] What are your thoughts?

Well, here's the way I view it. (For today, anyway. )

"Luck" is to suggest that I have options. But I require everything responsible for my existence and identity. Not just location.

I can only be me via the prior history, geographical coordinates, and specific meetings of people (like my parents) that were responsible for bringing me into existence and all the many later circumstances bringing about the development of this body and mind (personal memories, interests, tendencies, etc).

I reside within this possibility because it is not a possibility. It is necessary. It is the only extended sequence of conditions where this precise series of body states can exist with this precise identity.

If there were other versions of me in a multiverse (especially those who weren't "lucky" -- like say got kidnapped after birth and raised in Syria), then they're in those parallel worlds because they are not me. They wouldn't have my exact history and identity even if there were only minor differences with some. That I'm not conscious of their worlds (even as recalled memories) and they're not conscious of mine validates we would not be the same.

Or to put another way: I can't exist by being somebody else, which even a variation of me would be. I can only be this person. And the latter requires everything that made it what it is for better or worse (location very much a key factor there).

[RainbowUnicorn]

Why do some American citizens feel entitled to keep out those who wish to become American citizens, as well? Of course, we have to apply safety measures. Those who wish to harm us, shouldn't be permitted to become citizens, but for those who are seeking a better life, why do so many citizens (we won't go into politics for the sake of this thread) wish to make this a challenge? 

I ask this as someone who was only born in America by luck, or fate. Or some other such thing. My grandparents and father came from other countries, and became citizens. But, for me? I was born in the United States, by sheer luck.

It is only fate or luck that separates any of us from those who live on the other side of our borders. 

Calling myself an American isn't an accomplishment, I didn't have to do anything. It was all just luck.

Any one of us could have been born in a war torn country, and would be now seeking asylum. I guess I have a difficult time understanding aggressive nationalist ideals, when being born in this country is only a matter of fate, luck or happenstance. I'm grateful to live in the United States, where I have many freedoms, and take nothing for granted. But, I didn't have to work for these freedoms. They have always just been there for me. My birthright? 

Imagine having to put forth a diligent effort...to become a citizen of the US. I can't relate, because luck gave me this life. And some days, I feel bad about the unfairness of it all - that where we are born, is only a matter of luck.

What are your thoughts?

And some days, I feel bad about the unfairness of it all - that where we are born, is only a matter of luck.

What are your thoughts?

good
i am glad you feel pain about this
it shows you have the ability to empathize with a concept that is higher than simple hand to mouth concepts.

different people process this stuff differently.
some don't care
some start global movements

so the more technical part of your subject is the human animal in a community setting.
communitys have rules

however. in the usa you have an interesting mix of ideological counter points
extreme xenophobia and fascist dictatorship all the way through to socialist hippies

part of what you are asking is to know the pain & mental suffering of those who feel hate
sometimes we are better off not knowing the hate and suffering of some people.
not everyone is equipped to deal with such things.

---

I guess I have a difficult time understanding aggressive nationalist ideals, when being born in this country is only a matter of fate, luck or happenstance.

What are your thoughts?

try and imagine for a moment that your ability to define good or bad people is gone
all you have to go on is a limited intellectual ability that relys on signs and signals like flags and skin colour

then imagine that everyone around you that is not in your immediate circle of friends(some of whom are enemy's)
that you simply do not trust them.
you know they will steal or attack you the moment they can get away with it or if they can make money off it.

THAT is their reality

everything is dark and terrible
fear is everything
no body can be trusted
society is divided into gangs all who will exploit their position of power over any individual simply because they have the ability to get away with it.

THAT is their reality

while others try and wear the skin(act and try to get others to see them in this way by language body language clothing and behaviours) of depraved serial killers to frighten people off because they have such terrible fear in their hearts.
hate is the only thing they know and they cling on to it at all costs to the death.

that is their reality

[Zinjanthropos]

What do they say, 'you can't pick your parents'.  I feel fortunate to have been born and having a go at life. The last thing I want is to give it up but a different kind of luck has that covered. I think Kurt Vonnegut says it nicely:

And I was some of the mud that got to sit up and look
around.
Lucky me, lucky mud.

[Syne]

Not to mention the many people in the US who are doing worse than the third-world, solely on their own bad choices. So birthplace is not a golden ticket.

[Leigha]

People fought and died to make the US the freest, most prosperous country in the world. So why should those who flee their own "birthright", instead of fighting for it, be welcomed on no more merit than their lack of patriotic loyalty to their birth country? Fleeing is the easy way out, but then many do not accept refuge in the first country they hit. They are greedy enough to accept nothing less than the US. That doesn't sound like it's out of pure necessity. And now that those at the southern border have to wait in Mexico, many are going home, rather than seek asylum there. The US has fewer restrictions on immigration than Australia, the UK, Canada, and even Mexico...where you have to prove your income for even a temporary visa and prove much more income for permanent residence. So we are exceedingly generous.

Being an American is a blessing, and one which those Americans who hate our country are foolish enough to squander. Bring in enough of the third-world and the US starts to look like one...like several California cities for instance.

These are good points, but while my family of origin (part of it) struggled to come to the US at one time, *I* still feel lucky that I didn't personally have to undergo the struggle, if that makes sense. 

I wonder why some Americans ''hate'' our country. Hmm. Or maybe they just aren't patriots or ''proud'' of the US? Or maybe they feel the US ''needs improvement,'' which isn't synonymous with hating the US. But, it seems that some on the left truly do hate America. It's an interesting observation though, that most everyone on the right, is a variation of ''somewhat'' to ''very'' patriotic. 

I stumbled upon this book whilst looking for something else, have you read it?

https://www.kobo.com/us/en/ebook/why-the-left-hates-america

I usually don't read politically-driven books, but I might make an exception. To educate myself, because while I know many people on the left, they generally just hate Trump.

[Syne]

I would bet that those who have come to the US intent on working hard would consider any struggle to be a fair exchange for the opportunities they've found here. The saying "you get what you pay for" comes to mind, only the corollary, that you value what costs you more. The struggle to get here often translates to being productive citizens, happy to have the chance to work hard to improve their own lives. People with nothing to offer the US, and not even going through the relatively modest (compared to other Western countries) requirements of legal immigration, don't value being in the US the same way. Until relatively recently, illegal aliens just had to hop the border, get a court date, and then disappear once released into the US. Same for many expired visas and refugees.

And it's these people, with no real gratitude or loyalty to the US, that the left often panders to...as was seen in the Democrat debate, where they all raised their hands saying they would offer free healthcare to illegal aliens...at US taxpayer expense, mind you.

I haven't read that book, but there's plenty of similar work out there. Dennis Prager comes to mind. Trump haters could be anti-American leftists, but they could just be ignorant (useful idiots) or partisan bubble-dwellers...who have maligned Republicans long before Trump. I would, however, be surprised if Trump-haters don't also hate many/most Republicans. So while not all Democrats may hate America, most will be viciously partisan, and their judgement of America sways with whether their party is in power.


I could get into how r/K selection theory explains big-government collectivism or how underdeveloped amygdalae explain finding more "threats" among fellow Americans than outspoken terrorists and dictators, but I've done so before.

[Zinjanthropos]

Do you think Iranians feel as lucky as Americans? Luck & loyalty seem to go together.

[Leigha]

It's interesting that you bring up Iran, Z. I'm part Iranian from my father's side and I wouldn't feel ''lucky,'' living in that region right now. By some cosmic twist of fate however, I could have easily been born and raised there. It might not be popular to say, but as a woman especially, there's no way I'd feel fortunate to live in a country that lives under an oppressive, tyrannical government. (knowing what I know, now)

The way women are treated there, I'd live a far different life than I do now. But, maybe, if I were born in the middle east, I'd have a different mindset. I'd not understand what an American lifestyle really is, I'd likely be fed propaganda that would teach me to hate America. So, maybe I would feel ''fortunate,'' since what we don't know, doesn't hurt us.