Random thoughts/comments

[Magical Realist]

I just got thru debating with an old school buddy of mine on Facebook about the exodus account and whether there is any evidence for it. He insisted there's evidence the Israelites were in Egypt and then left and wandered in the desert for 40 years. I pointed out to him that that is not what archaeologists show, rather that the Israelites began as Canaanites in the Levant around 2000 BC and were never in Egypt. I asked him when he thought Noah's flood happened and he said 3000 BC. I pointed out that there was an early kingdom ruled by King Menes in Egypt at that time, to which he responded the Egyptian chronology is off by 600 years. Seriously? We closed on a friendly note, but it made me realize how crucial to his faith the literal stories of bible are.

After that debate another guy started a another debate about the age of the earth being 6000 years old and I brought up the Grand Canyon, to which he responded with the claim that it was all dug out by the flood 5000 years ago like Mt St Helens dug out 300 ft canyons in ash deposits from the lake that burst out of its crater. I finally cornered him by showing him the 40 odd rock strata of the canyon's walls that would've taken millions of years to form, and he claimed sedimentary rock can form quickly but offered no evidence for it. He finally just disappeared. I hope I didn't damage his faith. But if your faith hinges on the bible stories being literally true, you've pretty much set yourself up with problems. Does your faith rely on the Bible being an accurate historical account Leigha?

[Leigha]

I just got thru debating with an old school buddy of mine on Facebook about the exodus account and whether there is any evidence for it. He insisted there's evidence the Israelites were in Egypt and then left and wandered in the desert for 40 years. I pointed out to him that that is not what archaeologists show, rather that the Israelites began as Canaanites in the Middle East and were never in Egypt. I asked him when he thought Noah's flood happened and he said 3000 BC. I pointed out that there was an early kingdom ruled by King Menes in Egypt at that time, to which he responded the Egyptian chronology is off by 600 years. Seriously? We closed on a friendly note, but it made me realize how crucial to his faith the literal stories of bible are.

After that debate another guy started a debate about the age of the earth being 6000 years old and I brought up the Grand Canyon, to which he responded with the claim that it was all dug out by the flood 5000 years ago like Mt St Helens dug out 300 ft canyons in ash deposits from the lake that burst out of the crater. I finally cornered him by showing him the 40 odd rock strata of the canyon's walls that would've taken millions of years to form, and he claimed sedimentary rock can form quickly but offered no evidence for it. He finally just disappeared. I hope I didn't damage his faith. But if your faith hinges on the bible stories being literally true, you've pretty much set yourself up with problems. Does your faith rely on the Bible being an accurate historical account Leigha?

Well, for starters, I don't believe that it's a ''requirement'' to view the Earth's age, as somewhere between 6,000 and 10,000 years old, to be a ''believer.'' Many fundamentalists believe this because they are expressly looking at the geneologies that are expressed in the OT. I've read different things that there could be generations ''missing,'' considering that all of the content of the Bible wasn't written together, as one flowing book. Genesis for example, isn't witten with scientific intent. It could be possible that some information is missing. That said, I don't know if the earth is billions of years old, I don't feel there is conclusive evidence to support that, to be honest. At the same time, I don't think that it's 6000 years old, either. I think there has to be some grey area, we could agree on. 

Too bad you can't join my Bible study, it'd be fun! To answer your question, my faith relies on the Bible being an accurate spiritual account, not necessarily historical. Have you read the Bible entirely? Also, keep in mind, faith isn't only found within the pages of the Bible. The NT is significant to me, though, in that I do believe the stories because the four Gospel books truly read like eyewitness accounts. Not all supernatural happenings, either. Some of it is quite mundane, and I marvel how people then, and all throughout history, grapple with much of the same existential issues that we do, today.

[Secular Sanity]

Too bad you can't join my Bible study, it'd be fun! To answer your question, my faith relies on the Bible being an accurate spiritual account, not necessarily historical. Have you read the Bible entirely? Also, keep in mind, faith isn't only found within the pages of the Bible. The NT is significant to me, though, in that I do believe the stories because the four Gospel books truly read like eyewitness accounts. Not all supernatural happenings, either. Some of it is quite mundane, and I marvel how people then, and all throughout history, grapple with much of the same existential issues that we do, today.

I have read the bible all the way through. My grandfather read it every single night. He put all the dates of when he reread it on the back pages. The whole back is covered with dates. When I was little, I'd leave (missing you) notes in various places to see if he was really reading it that much. My grandmother said that he'd tear up whenever he found one. My grandmother came to stay with us on one occasion. I lost my virginity when I was seventeen. She found my birth control pills. My bible was filled with yellow stickems. Read this verse, blah-blah-blah! My pills were hidden well. That ole biddy had to be ransacking my room.

I lost most of my Christian friends when I came out as an atheist. One has stuck around but she’s not what I’d call a good friend. She gossips a lot and regulates her self-esteem by devaluating others but I’ve known her forever. She always wants me to come by and it’s usually when her bible study is just ending. Tricky little thing, eh? As everyone is leaving, they do the Pelosi thing (I’ll pray for you.)

My best friend, she just bought a huge ranch. It’s so big that I haven’t even had time to explore the entire property yet, but last week, we walked up a hill and discovered an awesome spot. There’s an old petrified tree and you can see the entire valley from there. We sat on a rock and she said, "This is where we shall sit and solve world problems, my friend." She’s an atheist and one of the kindest human beings I’ve ever known. We’re hard on each other, though. The truth stings sometimes, but without it, our friendship wouldn’t be as strong as it is. We both want the best for each other. If you ever find someone like that, hang onto them because they’re really rare.

P.S. If you lived closer, I’d come, but only if you were providing Jesus Juice.

Good luck, wegs! Let us know how it goes.

[Leigha]

lol I like your stories, SS

Most of my friends are atheists, and sadly, I lost quite a few of my ''Christian'' friends about six years ago, when I left the faith. When they had heard that I wasn't an atheist anymore (about 3 years ago), they started contacting me again. Ahhh, "turn the other cheek, give someone who has wronged you, your other cloak." (Jesus drives a hard bargain, sometimes. lol) There are good and bad in all sectors of life and corners of the world, if we could do away with the labels, we'd likely all get along better. ''We'' meaning humankind in general. Personally though, I'd say my faith experiences before, came from indoctrination traditions and rituals. Having left and returned, I've actually come to believe that Jesus's teachings are true. I know many people who follow various religions because of a sense of community, belonging, being of service to others, etc. But, you can be an atheist, and still find all of that.

[Syne]

Well, for starters, I don't believe that it's a ''requirement'' to view the Earth's age, as somewhere between 6,000 and 10,000 years old, to be a ''believer.''

I've never met a Christian to whom the age of the Earth was central to their faith.

[Leigha]

Well, for starters, I don't believe that it's a ''requirement'' to view the Earth's age, as somewhere between 6,000 and 10,000 years old, to be a ''believer.''

I've never met a Christian to whom the age of the Earth was central to their faith.

Me neither, but this comes up on occasion on SF (for example), almost in the form of a ''gotcha'' type of discussion method by some atheists there. It's often couched as ''Christians believe that the Earth is 6000 years old, so they are anti-science.'' Case closed. It puts any believer on the defense, especially if they don't believe in a young Earth. Many Christians are anti-science however, as they see it as contradicting with the Bible, but faith and science can coexist, imo. I'm unsure as to why many Christians feel that science conflicts with the Bible, as science helps us to map out reality, and learn the mechanics of that reality. It's almost as though they feel science is threatening their faith in some way, that if they accept certain scientific theories, they will in essence, seem like they're betraying their faith. But, science doesn't have all of the answers, and frankly, there are quite a few scientists who believe in a higher power, even a personal God.

I suppose where science and faith disagree, is that when one believes in God, it becomes almost impossible to believe that the universe happened by chance, whereas the anti-religious scientist tends to believe the opposite. (And that can open a whole new can of worms lol) But, there is room for science and faith to get along just fine.

[Syne]

Well, for starters, I don't believe that it's a ''requirement'' to view the Earth's age, as somewhere between 6,000 and 10,000 years old, to be a ''believer.''

I've never met a Christian to whom the age of the Earth was central to their faith.

Me neither, but this comes up on occasion on SF (for example), almost in the form of a ''gotcha'' type of discussion method by some atheists there. It's often couched as ''Christians believe that the Earth is 6000 years old, so they are anti-science.'' Case closed. It puts any believer on the defense, especially if they don't believe in a young Earth. Many Christians are anti-science however, as they see it as contradicting with the Bible, but faith and science can coexist, imo. I'm unsure as to why many Christians feel that science conflicts with the Bible, as science helps us to map out reality, and learn the mechanics of that reality. 

I suppose where science and faith disagree, is that when one believes in God, it becomes almost impossible to believe that the universe happened by chance, whereas the anti-religious scientist tends to believe the opposite. But, there is room for science and faith to get along just fine.

Many, including actual scientists who should know better, use science to make claims that the science doesn't justify. Like life from matter (abiogenesis), speciation, or that a fetus is not a unique human life. So it's these scientists and science fanboys that have tarnished science in the eyes of others. Like the Catholic church, who agrees with the scientific age of the Earth, I'm sure many Christians see the age of the Earth as insignificant in comparison to other things people try to claim science refutes about their religious beliefs.

And most Christians aren't actually anti-science. Studies have shown that they, generally, understand the science better than most, but they just disagree with the conclusions. If people don't use science to make claims science doesn't really justify, there is zero conflict with religion.

[Magical Realist]

Leigha, what is your view on this verse by St. Paul? Do you agree with it?

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NASB)

By my cursory count, these "unrighteous" that Paul hates so much comprise just about everybody on earth. What is the fate of all these horrible sinners if they don't believe in Jesus? Eternal hellfire?

[Syne]

Wow, "about everybody on earth"? What a horrendously pessimistic view of your fellow humans. At least you quoted the bit about redemption.

[Zinjanthropos]

Leigha/Wegs mentioned Bible study. I can sort of get that, like being interested in its philosophy I suppose. Maybe there's some historical significance too.  So I ask the question: is it possible to study a belief, in particular a god? Where are the facts, evidence, successful experimentation to suggest it's even true or real? I wouldn't know where to start and the internet isn't much help either. So perhaps no one truly studies a god belief, everyone realizes there's not much scientifically to go on. That takes me to theology...if that doesn't study god then what does ? My best guess is that theology is more of a study of religion than god(s). So back to Bible studying, what exactly is that? Is god included?