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Universe’s ultimate complexity revealed by simple quantum games?

#1
C C Offline
https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-unive...-20190305/

EXCERPT: . . . John Stewart Bell came up with “nonlocal” games, which require players to be at a distance from each other with no way to communicate. Each player answers a question. The players win or lose based on the compatibility of their answers. One such game is the magic square game. [...] In the magic square game, and other games like it, there doesn’t seem to be a way for the players to win 100 percent of the time. And indeed, in a world completely explained by classical physics, 89 percent is the best Alice and Bob could do. But quantum mechanics — specifically, the bizarre quantum phenomenon of “entanglement” — allows Alice and Bob to do better.

In quantum mechanics [...] When two particles are entangled ... This relationship between the two ... holds when they’re right next to each other and when they’re light-years apart: Even at that distance, if you measure the position of one electron, the position of the other becomes instantly determined, even though no causal event has passed between them. The phenomenon seems preposterous because there’s nothing about our non-quantum-scale experience to suggest such a thing is possible....

To implement a quantum strategy in the magic square game, Alice and Bob each take one of a pair of entangled particles. To determine which numbers to write down, they measure properties of their particles — almost as if they were rolling correlated dice to guide their choice of answers. What Bell calculated, and what many subsequent experiments have shown, is that by exploiting the strange quantum correlations found in entanglement, players of games like the magic square game can coordinate their answers with greater exactness and win the game more than 89 percent of the time.

Bell came up with nonlocal games as a way to show that entanglement was real, and that our classical view of the world was incomplete — a conclusion that was very much up for grabs in Bell’s time. “Bell came up with this experiment you could do in a laboratory,” Cleve said. If you recorded higher-than-expected success rates in these experimental games, you’d know the players had to be exploiting some feature of the physical world not explained by classical physics.

What William Slofstra and others have done since then is similar in strategy, but different in scope. They’ve shown that not only do Bell’s games imply the reality of entanglement, but some games have the power to imply a whole lot more — like whether there is any limit to the number of configurations the universe can take.

[...] Slofstra’s result came as a shock. Eleven days after his paper appeared, the computer scientist Scott Aaronson wrote that Slofstra’s result touches “on a question of almost metaphysical significance: namely, what sorts of experimental evidence could possibly bear on whether the universe was discrete or continuous?”

Aaronson was referring to the different states the universe can take — where a state is a particular configuration of all the matter within it. Every physical system has its own state space, which is an index of all the different states it can take. Researchers talk about a state space as having a certain number of dimensions, reflecting the number of independent characteristics you can adjust in the underlying system.

A deep question about the physical world is whether there’s a limit to the size of the state space of the universe (or of any physical system). If there is a limit, it means that no matter how large and complicated your physical system is, there are still only so many ways it can be configured. “The question is whether physics allows there to be physical systems that have an infinite number of properties that are independent of each other that you could in principle observe,” said Thomas Vidick, a computer scientist at the California Institute of Technology.

The field of physics is undecided on this point. In fact, it maintains two contradictory views. On the one hand, students in an introductory quantum mechanics course are taught to think in terms of infinite-dimensional state spaces. [...] But perhaps the idea of infinite-dimensional state spaces is nonsense. In the 1970s, the physicists Jacob Bekenstein and Stephen Hawking calculated that a black hole is the most complicated physical system in the universe, yet even its state can be specified by a huge but finite number of parameters ...

These competing perspectives on state spaces reflect fundamentally different views about the nature of physical reality. If state spaces are truly finite-dimensional, this means that at the smallest scale, nature is pixelated. But if electrons require infinite-dimensional state spaces, physical reality is fundamentally continuous — an unbroken sheet even at the finest resolution.

So which is it? Physics hasn’t devised an answer, but games like Slofstra’s could, in principle, provide one....

MORE (details): https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-unive...-20190305/
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#2
stryder Offline
Discrete OR Continuous?  Binary OR Analogue? Top-Down OR Bottom-Up?

I think they are using an OR where an AND should be, but then it's no longer a question and more like the tip of an answer.
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#3
Syne Offline
I think that's true, but rather than being both discrete and continuous at the same time, I think the universe "pulses" between the two. It goes from one continuous state to the next by a leap through a discrete state. The smaller the scale the more rapid the pulse, so it seems wholly discrete, and the larger the scale the slower the pulse, so it seems wholly continuous. And it really isn't a question of if things are bottom-up or top-down, but a matter of top and bottom being the same causal point on a circle. Kind of like a dream, where the dreamer is both creating and perceiving/acting upon the reality simultaneously...or again, perhaps oscillating between the two rapidly enough to go unnoticed.
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#4
Zinjanthropos Offline
I used to watch ‘I Dream of Jeannie’ when I was younger. Barbara Eden being so hot was one reason but every time she made something out of thin air it made me think that if it’s real then there’s got to be some kind of method to the process. There had to be a way she could actually accomplish it scientifically. I feel the universe is like that but still under construction.

Only to be torn down. There’s the pulse. Here one nanosecond and gone in a few trillion years.
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#5
C C Offline
(Mar 7, 2019 05:59 AM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: I used to watch ‘I Dream of Jeannie’ when I was younger. Barbara Eden being so hot was one reason but every time she made something out of thin air it made me think that if it’s real then there’s got to be some kind of method to the process. There had to be a way she could actually accomplish it scientifically.

If Jeannie existed in a simulated reality, then the correct vocal spells or gestures would be like computer code activating "hidden" programming that usurped the conventional rules which regulated that world. It would appear to be brute magical conjuring to observers, but behind the scenes or at the "transcendent" level of another world's hardware the "supernatural feats" would be accomplished by the natural agencies which the latter abided by.

But OTOH, repeating the same situation as an explanation or a provenance for _X_ is the general "erroneous" template which items like the homunculus argument
revolve around. So we should actually want something "completely different" to stop such a "Russian dolls within Russian dolls" scenario if another stratum was indeed responsible for our natural world.

However -- barring extermination of technological civilization -- there will be sophisticated, simulated realities in the future[*] which will more or less be repeating the way the type of realm we have here works. So judging this "Russian doll syndrome" to be going as nowhere as it disparagingly suggests doesn't prevent instances of the scenario from literally materializing (in theory, if we don't destroy ourselves prematurely).

- - -

[*] Simulated realities won't literally contain as vast a world as ours supposedly is, but depend upon formulaic props and mimic computational solipsism tricks which a dreaming brain uses to yield the impression that the dream-landscape is endless. Call it "Berkeley-Tron" or something maybe, generating highly governed, internally consistent and inter-subjectively distributed external environments on the fly.

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#6
Zinjanthropos Offline
I'm open about it CC and won't discount it entirely but I still don't like the term 'from another realm' at all and I think there's a more than an excellent chance there is only one, and we are in it. Show me a simulation from another realm to convince me otherwise. I would imagine if such places exist then their occupants are simulating as well. 

I like going back to what Krauss said about future civilizations in a galaxy where there is no evidence of any other galaxies, BB or whatever. What would their simulations be like? Would our time period be classified as another realm? Maybe that's it, like it or not, some crucial evidence has already passed us by thus rendering all our simulations false.
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#7
stryder Offline
Realms of the cannibalistic snake? An Ouroboros (wikipedia.org) Singularity where the creators of a world are actually their own makers.

I apologise for blurting crypticisms. The main problem is that while it is indeed it's philosophical or metaphysical, the very nature of the material within this subject can become mind numbingly complex should it diverge too much, so I rationalised keeping my take on the subject to a bare but concise minimum.
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#8
C C Offline
(Mar 7, 2019 01:51 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: I'm open about it CC and won't discount it entirely but I still don't like the term 'from another realm' at all and I think there's a more than an excellent chance there is only one, and we are in it. Show me a simulation from another realm to convince me otherwise. I would imagine if such places exist then their occupants are simulating as well. 

I like going back to what Krauss said about future civilizations in a galaxy where there is no evidence of any other galaxies, BB or whatever. What would their simulations be like? Would our time period be classified as another realm? Maybe that's it, like it or not, some crucial evidence has already passed us by thus rendering all our simulations false.


Ironically, we're already living in a brain-produced simulation (those everyday phenomenal representations of objects which we're experientially surrounded by) that is very different from the next-level external world which physics or various stripes of scientific realism depict as transpiring outside our heads.

But it's more like an augmented or mixed reality -- certainly not a simulated reality in total context. Since the biological cognitive process is trying to map and correspond survival wise to the ways of that "extra-mental" realm. Phenomenalists of the 19th-century tried to be neutral about or deny other varieties next-level "external worlds" apart from the outer environment that is manifested in our sensations. But physicalists and scientific realists dominate today and poo-pah away those anti-metaphysical reservations of that bygone generation of empiricists -- often even misconstruing them as solipsists.

Simulation science and philosophy doesn't necessarily apply to us, but to those simulated realities of the future, which inescapably would have a next-level "external world" producing them which could be optionally hidden from the inhabitants.

As a side-effect, however, the critical thinkers of that era, via being exposed to its technological accomplishments and its novel solution gimmicks in that territory, would accordingly have their skepticism mitigated at least a degree with regard to the possibility of own world being in a similar situation. Imperfectly analogous to pessimism about "flying machines" or moon-landings being possible, decreasing after the 20th-century arrived. Or scientific realism about atoms and particles being much more in vogue after the atomic bomb was detonated. (Early on even Einstein was an adherent of Ernst Mach's phenomenalism or "epistemological approach" -- the anti-realism propaganda which disseminated in that turn-of-the-century time.)

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(Mar 7, 2019 02:30 PM)stryder Wrote: Realms of the cannibalistic snake? An Ouroboros (wikipedia.org) Singularity where the creators of a world are actually their own makers.

I apologise for blurting crypticisms. The main problem is that while it is indeed it's philosophical or metaphysical, the very nature of the material within this subject can become mind numbingly complex should it diverge too much, so I rationalised keeping my take on the subject to a bare but concise minimum.

Jack Sarfatti -- on of those "hippie rebels" of the Fundamental Fysiks Group back in the '70s -- seems to hold the view of self-creation. That a super-advanced civilization in the future will trigger the Big Bang or whatever responsible circumstance which began this universe, and then it circularly continues/repeats from there. He used to be a quite a flamboyant figure on Usenet, and may still be, despite the age.

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