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Syne
Oct 30, 2018 03:16 AM
(Oct 30, 2018 02:18 AM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: (Oct 30, 2018 01:18 AM)Syne Wrote: (Oct 30, 2018 12:42 AM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: Is there anything else on the No Poof list? I was wondering because if the Intelligent Designer didn't arrive in a Poof then what about the space, realm etc of it's existence? Like what was first, the IDer or the IDer's place to exist in? Do we call it a draw and simultaneity wins?
If a designer is necessary it cannot be contingent upon anything, including a space in which to exist. There can really only be one necessary existence, otherwise two or more necessary existences would be defined by their differences, making them contingent upon one another.
The designer would be contingent upon an available space. Space first, designer 2nd. No place to exist , no designer. Thus a designer is a poof.
There's only one solution. The place to exist is the designer. Pretty much what we figure happened, even if we like to think different.
No, a necessary existence wouldn't take up or require any preexisting space. You seem to be thinking in terms of physical existence, which is all contingent.
But since all contingent existence is reliant upon the necessary existence, there is a sense in which you could say that all contingent things are "part of" the necessary, although not identical. This is possible because contingent things are neither necessarily true nor necessarily false.
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Zinjanthropos
Oct 30, 2018 03:47 AM
Quote:No, a necessary existence wouldn't take up or require any preexisting space. You seem to be thinking in terms of physical existence, which is all contingent.
But since all contingent existence is reliant upon the necessary existence, there is a sense in which you could say that all contingent things are "part of" the necessary, although not identical. This is possible because contingent things are neither necessarily true nor necessarily false.
I think of the space the same way you think of the necessary existence.
Are you saying there can be no 'nothingness'? Something must always have been?
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Syne
Oct 30, 2018 04:27 AM
(Oct 30, 2018 03:47 AM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: Quote:No, a necessary existence wouldn't take up or require any preexisting space. You seem to be thinking in terms of physical existence, which is all contingent.
But since all contingent existence is reliant upon the necessary existence, there is a sense in which you could say that all contingent things are "part of" the necessary, although not identical. This is possible because contingent things are neither necessarily true nor necessarily false.
I think of the space the same way you think of the necessary existence. I can assure you, you don't.
Quote:Are you saying there can be no 'nothingness'? Something must always have been?
Quite the opposite, but space isn't a "nothingness", according to vacuum energy evidenced by the Casimir effect.
Nor has a physical "somethingness" always existed.
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Zinjanthropos
Oct 30, 2018 04:51 AM
(Oct 30, 2018 04:27 AM)Syne Wrote: I can assure you, you don't.
Whatever you say. As paradoxical as it sounds..... You telling me you know what I'm thinking just so you can say I don't know what you're thinking. I'll take it as a hint to stop the discussion.
Nothing more to offer here. Done with this subject. Maybe we can bitch/squawk over another topic some day and heaven forbid, agree on something. Nah, wouldn't be any fun.
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Syne
Oct 30, 2018 07:34 AM
(Oct 30, 2018 04:51 AM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: (Oct 30, 2018 04:27 AM)Syne Wrote: I can assure you, you don't.
Whatever you say. As paradoxical as it sounds..... You telling me you know what I'm thinking just so you can say I don't know what you're thinking. I'll take it as a hint to stop the discussion.
So you really think space has always existed and, all by itself, can somehow produce the entirety of existence? Did it always have a non-zero extent? Why did it start expanding, and why is it, along with time (spacetime), curved by the mass of matter?
Lots of reasons to think space is contingent, which leads me to seriously doubt your take on a necessary existence.
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