YazataNov 17, 2017 09:08 PM (This post was last modified: Nov 17, 2017 09:35 PM by Yazata.)
An Argentine Navy submarine with 44 aboard left Tierra del Fuego on its way north towards Mar del Plata, near Buenos Aires, when contact was lost with it. That was two days ago. Its last known location was east of Chubut province in Patagonia in southern Argentina.
The Argentine Navy has sent a destroyer and two smaller corvettes along with multiple aircraft to look for it and NASA has diverted a former anti-submarine P-3 Orion that was doing survey work in Antarctica to looking for the sub. Britain is offering the services of aircraft currently in the Falklands.
Argentina hasn't yet formally asked for American aid, but the US Navy is readying submarine rescue assets in case they are needed. The USN has pressure-resistant rescue capsules that can be transported by air from San Diego where they currently are to Argentina if needed. These can lock onto a submarine's hatch and carry up to 16 men at a time to the surface.
But the sub has to be found first. (Presumably it's on the ocean floor.) Then it has to be determined whether anyone is alive aboard it.
C CNov 18, 2017 01:24 AM (This post was last modified: Nov 18, 2017 01:28 AM by C C.)
(Nov 17, 2017 09:08 PM)Yazata Wrote: Argentina hasn't yet formally asked for American aid, but the US Navy is readying submarine rescue assets in case they are needed. The USN has pressure-resistant rescue capsules that can be transported by air from San Diego where they currently are to Argentina if needed. These can lock onto a submarine's hatch and carry up to 16 men at a time to the surface.
In terms of solely recovering dead crewmen, sure beats that huge mechanical claw of the Hughes Glomar Explorer back in 1974. In that it only recovered 38-feet of the bow and six bodies of low priority. An equipment failure causing the rest of the Soviet sub to break off.
YazataNov 18, 2017 04:05 AM (This post was last modified: Nov 18, 2017 04:15 AM by Yazata.)
Argentine local media are saying that the submarine reported a fire in its battery compartment in its last transmission Wednesday. The Argentine Navy doesn't exactly deny it, but says that it isn't official information.
That might conceivably be very bad news, since a submarine is pretty much a sealed tube that can quickly become filled with poisonous gas. But if that's the nature of their emergency, one might expect to find the sub drifting on the surface without power. It sounds like that's what the Argentine navy expects. Assuming that there was a fire, hopefully the crew was able to seal most of the boat off from the smoke. Many of the crew might be sitting atop the sub now as it drifts, just to get fresh air.
But... the thing should have emergency radios and backup communications. So one would still expect to hear something from it.
There are also reports that one of the 44 crew was Argentina's first female submariner.
(Nov 18, 2017 04:05 AM)Yazata Wrote: Argentine local media are saying that the submarine reported a fire in its battery compartment in its last transmission Wednesday. The Argentine Navy doesn't exactly deny it, but says that it isn't official information.
That might conceivably be very bad news, since a submarine is pretty much a sealed tube that can quickly become filled with poisonous gas. But if that's the nature of their emergency, one might expect to find the sub drifting on the surface without power. It sounds like that's what the Argentine navy expects. Assuming that there was a fire, hopefully the crew was able to seal most of the boat off from the smoke. Many of the crew might be sitting atop the sub now as it drifts, just to get fresh air.
But... the thing should have emergency radios and backup communications. So one would still expect to hear something from it.
There are also reports that one of the 44 crew was Argentina's first female submariner.
they should design the battery room to be able to be jettisoned.
with an alternate back up emergency battery room at the other end of the sub to get them to the surface.
once a fire took hold in a battery room it might not be possible to put it out
just a note for the video, you can see the concrete barriers where the vehicle has impacted, indicating a collision speed of atleast 100kmph.
concrete debris on the side of the road also suggests the vehicle has hit the concrete more than once indicating a possible speed closer to 150kmph minimum on innitial impact with secondary impact close to 100kmph
(thats my rough guess by looking at the video)
i wonder if nasa can assign its sea floor mapping satalite to take a look for it.
needle in a haystack i guess without somewhere to start from.
stryderNov 18, 2017 11:56 AM (This post was last modified: Nov 18, 2017 12:14 PM by stryder.)
RainbowUnicorn Wrote:They should design the battery room to be able to be jettisoned."
To maintain a pH scale of 7 usually means balancing an Acid and Alkali.
so It would make more sense to have the battery cells containing within an inversion neutralisation medium. The problem of course though is the level of pH can be effected by prolonged temperature causing reduction and of course volatility through movement within the liquids themselves, which means to fully neutralise with a medium then requires more fine tuning for balancing.
It's one of the main reasons why it's suggested to attempt to wash with water rather than finding a neutralising balance if someone accidentally gets covered in acid/alkali. While it doesn't stop the effects immediately, it does reduce the strength through dilution and "neutralise" it.
There is hypothetically other ways of powering which would reduce battery sizes further, however it's something that I'd actually want to look into further which means it's awkwards to just write what the hypothetical is, as if what I believe is true became a reality it would literally replace a whole bunch of things that we currently take for granted.
As for Submarines:
I'd assume it would be possible to seal a compartment in case of fire and either use oxygen starvation or fill the chamber with sea water to put it out (although I couldn't say the effects of batteries merged with sea water would be like in regards to corossiveness). I'm not particular familiar with submarinal designs however I'd consider points about if there were auxiliary systems that could be used to "direct power" critical systems should batteries become shutdown/damaged or destroyed, which then becomes a question of how the systems are wired. They would all be workarounds that a subcrew would be more familiar with.
The problem of course is carbon dioxide toxicity if the submarine could no longer maintain power to maintain oxygen filtration (or Electrolysis if that's used as a backup to maintain oxygen levels). If the crew succumbs to that, then no workarounds will help.
RainbowUnicorn" Wrote:They should design the battery room to be able to be jettisoned."
To maintain a pH scale of 7 usually means balancing an Acid and Alkali.
so It would make more sense to have the battery cells containing within an inversion neutralisation medium. The problem of course though is the level of pH can be effected by prolonged temperature causing reduction and of course volatility through movement within the liquids themselves, which means to fully neutralise with a medium then requires more fine tuning for balancing.
It's one of the main reasons why it's suggested to attempt to wash with water rather than finding a neutralising balance if someone accidentally gets covered in acid/alkali. While it doesn't stop the effects immediately, it does reduce the strength through dilution and "neutralise" it.
There is hypothetically other ways of powering which would reduce battery sizes further, however it's something that I'd actually want to look into further which means it's awkwards to just write what the hypothetical is, as if what I believe is true became a reality it would literally replace a whole bunch of things that we currently take for granted.
As for Submarines:
I'd assume it would be possible to seal a compartment in case of fire and either use oxygen starvation or fill the chamber with sea water to put it out (although I couldn't say the effects of batteries merged with sea water would be like in regards to corossiveness). I'm not particular familiar with submarinal designs however I'd consider points about if there were auxiliary systems that could be used to "direct power" critical systems should batteries become shutdown/damaged or destroyed, which then becomes a question of how the systems are wired. They would all be workarounds that a subcrew would be more familiar with.
The problem of course is carbon dioxide toxicity if the submarine could no longer maintain power to maintain oxygen filtration (or Electrolysis if that's used as a backup to maintain oxygen levels). If the crew succumbs to that, then no workarounds will help.
Quote:There is hypothetically other ways of powering which would reduce battery sizes further, however it's something that I'd actually want to look into further which means it's awkwards to just write what the hypothetical is, as if what I believe is true became a reality it would literally replace a whole bunch of things that we currently take for granted.
e.g induction engines that operate generically on phase variance ... ?
additionally desiging a shark skin like outercoating with dolphin muscle like flexible material in fins & tail features to create 0 energy directional propulsion with kenetic reflex energy production ... ?
probably a good 50 years away from that level of materials science i guess.
with these electric fabrics, eventually though the cost would be fantastic, being able to morph the outter skin of the sub would give it uni-directional water friction propulsion allowing massive savings in fossil fuel issues.
large container ships would have forward propulsion with 0 fuel cost at minute levels but over all saving massive amounts of fuel globally.
Quote:The problem of course is carbon dioxide toxicity if the submarine could no longer maintain power to maintain oxygen filtration (or Electrolysis if that's used as a backup to maintain oxygen levels). If the crew succumbs to that, then no workarounds will help
indeed.
you can see in the german video they have the ability to generate massive amounts of gas at little to no terminal cost to properly equiped staff.
unlike a sealed contained space.
thus i thought if you could just eject the whole terrible mess into the ocean it would solve the immediate imminent critical 100% human & equipment failure.
i would guess cost is probably a major factor
YazataNov 18, 2017 04:43 PM (This post was last modified: Nov 18, 2017 04:47 PM by Yazata.)
Still no sign of it. Nothing on radar, which suggests it might not be on the surface.
The US must have gotten a request for aid, since reports are saying that the US Navy is deploying an unspecified number of its P-8A Poseidon patrol aircraft to search for the missing sub. These are capable of patrolling large areas of sea, detecting pretty much anything metallic of any size that's afloat on the surface. They are also the Navy's latest anti-submarine-warfare aircraft and they carry gear to detect submerged submarines. I believe that the P-8's operate at higher altitude than the P-3's they are replacing and for that reason don't carry a magnetic anomaly detector. (That's created some controversy since critics charge that they are less capable. The USN insists that better sono-buoys make up for the difference.)
There's also a problem of crush-depth. I don't know how deep the Atlantic is where this sub went missing, but subs have maximum safe dive depths. That's usually secret, but it isn't unlimited. This was a 1980's vintage German export model (refitted more recently, but that wouldn't have changed the hull), so its crush depth won't be as deep as the most modern US, British or Russian nuclear submarines.
YazataNov 19, 2017 03:10 AM (This post was last modified: Nov 19, 2017 04:10 AM by Yazata.)
Reports are coming in that fragmentary signals have been detected by a satellite that may (or may not) be from the missing sub. The sub apparently carries a buoy attached to a cable with an emergency position-indicating radio beacon (EPIRB) antenna on it that can be released to the surface if the submarine is unable to surface for some reason. The Argentines think that was what was trying to communicate with the satellite. They are currently in consultations with the Americans (whose satellite it apparently is) to try to better narrow down where the signal came from. The seas are reportedly stormy in the area and the antenna may be bobbing around. Forecasts are for the weather to improve tomorrow so that hopefully the signal will be heard again.
The US Navy is deploying its submarine rescue equipment and crews from San Diego. The first group flew out this afternoon on four USAF transports, with the rest of the gear scheduled to leave tomorrow. It takes about a day for the aircraft to get to Argentina.
(Nov 19, 2017 03:10 AM)Yazata Wrote: Reports are coming in that fragmentary signals have been detected by a satellite that may (or may not) be from the missing sub. The sub apparently carries a buoy attached to a cable with an emergency position-indicating radio beacon (EPIRB) antenna on it that can be released to the surface if the submarine is unable to surface for some reason. The Argentines think that was what was trying to communicate with the satellite. They are currently in consultations with the Americans (whose satellite it apparently is) to try to better narrow down where the signal came from. The seas are reportedly stormy in the area and the antenna may be bobbing around. Forecasts are for the weather to improve tomorrow so that hopefully the signal will be heard again.
The US Navy is deploying its submarine rescue equipment and crews from San Diego. The first group flew out this afternoon on four USAF transports, with the rest of the gear scheduled to leave tomorrow. It takes about a day for the aircraft to get to Argentina.
Quote:US Navy is deploying an unspecified number of its P-8A Poseidon patrol aircraft to search for the missing sub.
awesome !
good news about the signal.
i wonder if any ham operators picked it up.
if they have attenuation data with several they could potentially devine a generic position to see if it matches with drift tide & last known positions.
hopefully they have hand-wind oxygen generators & hand wind co2 scrubbers
maybe 75 years from now a plane can be sent to fly over the area from 40,000ft as a container size block of micro swarm bots crumbles off spreading an electronic net over thousands of kilometers of open ocean.
have they just found anything jettisoned from the sub that they may use as a marker ?
from the bbc which is several hours old
Argentina missing submarine: Satellite signals detected
7 hours ago
Signals have been detected that are thought to have come from an Argentine submarine that went missing with 44 crew on board, officials say.The defence ministry is now trying to trace the location of the seven failed satellite calls received on Saturday.Argentina has stepped up the search in the South Atlantic for the ARA San Juan submarine, with a Nasa research plane joining in.The diesel-electric vessel disappeared 430km (267 miles) off the coast.Britain and countries in the region have offered assistance. The US Navy is flying deep water rescue modules to Argentina to be deployed if the submarine is found on the sea floor.
inflatible raft eperb butcher to teather to floats shot from a tube
Nov 17, 2017 09:08 PM
(This post was last modified: Nov 17, 2017 09:35 PM by Yazata.)
![[Image: Royal_Navy_Antarctic_Patrol_Ship_HMS_Pro...153156.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Royal_Navy_Antarctic_Patrol_Ship_HMS_Protector_MOD_45153156.jpg)
