Stephen Paddock was prescribed anti-anxiety medication

#41
Quote:Why would anyone freely choose to do evil? There must me something in them determining their actions beyond their choice---mental illness...

Only one of many factors I listed causing violence. Here's another you overlooked.

Quote:Meaning they aren't exercising freewill then because they are deluded in their thinking or blinded by rage or jealousy. They are making a mistake of judgment due to overwhelming emotions, which doesn't equate to freely choosing that action.

Quote:Really? You're so deprived that you already know that the right circumstances would make you a murder?

Where did I refer to myself being overcome by the emotions of rage and jealousy? Why are you always trying to make this about me?

Quote:Who said narrative identity was in any way palliative? Clinically, it is a diagnosis and status checking tool...not treatment.

Good. So you admit it isn't and people who are afflicted with mental illness have no freewill to be otherwise. So much for your freewill myth.

Quote:Synaptic pruning isn't a new theory (1982), nor does it account for all cases of schizophrenia, which would be necessary if it was the actual cause. As usual, you read some pop-sci and conflate correlation with causation.



That's what the study proved:

"The new study, based on a genetic analysis of nearly 65,000 people from around the world, pinpointed a defective gene that appears to trigger excessive pruning.
Scientists believe it is this that underlies the symptoms of schizophrenia, a severe psychotic condition marked by a loosening grip on reality, delusions, paranoia and hallucinations"

And brain shrinkage in bipolar patients isn't neuroplascisity.

"British researchers confirmed this in 2007.
They found people with bipolar disorder suffer from an accelerated shrinking of their brain.
Imaging studies carried out four years apart showed loss of brain tissue in the areas controlling memory, face recognition and coordination."
Reply
#42
(Oct 8, 2017 12:13 AM)Syne Wrote: Where did I link to that? Show me. Or are you just lying again? Rolleyes

(Oct 6, 2017 02:12 AM)Syne Wrote: But even if you view the evolutionary development of religion as a by-product, it's a by-product that reinforces the cooperation that led us to modern times. IOW, it has a purpose beyond comfort. And I've yet to see evidence claiming to show religion is primarily espoused for comfort.

From your link…

"Princess Alice, the kids were told, had a magical power: Alice could make herself invisible. Then the children were shown a chair and were told that Alice was sitting in the chair and that Alice would watch them play the game after the researcher left."

The story of the Elf on the Shelf describes how Santa's "scout Elves" hide in people's homes to watch over events. Once everyone goes to bed, the scout elf flies back to the North Pole to report to Santa the activities, good and bad that have taken place throughout the day.

Kate Tuttle calls it "a marketing juggernaut dressed up as a tradition" whose purpose is "to spy on kids" and that one shouldn't "bully your child into thinking that good behavior equals gifts."

Syne Wrote:Now cite me these verses you imagine say you need faith but no responsibility or that counseling bravery means everything will be okay.

Everything Will Be Okay

Syne Wrote:The concept of original sin varies between our fallible nature to total excoriation.

"We despised him and rejected him;
he endured suffering and pain.
No one would even look at him—
we ignored him as if he were nothing.
But he endured the suffering that should have been ours,
the pain that we should have borne.
All the while we thought that his suffering
was punishment sent by God.
But because of our sins he was wounded,
beaten because of the evil we did.
We are healed by the punishment he suffered,
made whole by the blows he received."
- Isaiah 53:3-5

Does that sound like a metaphor or something that happened in the beginning?

Oh, Isaiah’s prophecies of the Messiah?  Do you really want to go there or would you like to read all of them first?

Syne Wrote:Or are you saying that belief systems do, indeed, promote more cooperation? O_o

Wouldn't that belie your previous, "I don’t think that our cooperation is a by-product of the conception of god"? O_o

A belief system doesn’t have to include the conception of god.

Syne Wrote:And every notable US abolitionist was religious, and often cited their religion as the reason to end slavery.

"But the funny part about all of this awareness-raising is that it doesn’t accomplish all that much. The underlying assumption of so many attempts to influence people’s behavior — that they make bad choices because they lack the information to empower them to do otherwise — is, except in a few cases, false. And what’s worse, awareness-raising done in the wrong way can actually backfire, encouraging the negative activities in question. One of the favorite pastimes of a certain brand of concerned progressive, then, may be much more effective at making them feel good about themselves than actually improving the world in any substantive way." - http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/07/awa...rated.html

No, the funny part about all of this is that religion promoted slavery.

You were saying?
Reply
#43
(Oct 8, 2017 02:55 AM)Magical Realist Wrote:
Quote:Really? You're so deprived that you already know that the right circumstances would make you a murder?

Where did I refer to myself being overcome by the emotions of rage and jealousy? Why are you always trying to make this about me?
People generally posit behaviors in others that they subconsciously accept of themselves. If that's not what you're doing, how do you know they aren't just making up excuses for their behavior?
Quote:
Quote:Who said narrative identity was in any way palliative? Clinically, it is a diagnosis and status checking tool...not treatment.

Good. So you admit it isn't and people who are afflicted with mental illness have no freewill to be otherwise. So much for your freewill myth.
Where did I admit anything of the sort?

"In psychological terms a payoff coming from a distressful problem is called secondary gains. Many people who have psychological distress (or physical illness) get attention, support, more love, or other reinforcers that make change less attractive. These secondary gains are often not perceived as worth the cost, yet their significance may be minimized. Perhaps, potentially on an unconscious level, these gains significantly buffer the pain, tipping the scales to choosing to remain the same rather than change." - https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the...eel-better

Quote:
Quote:Synaptic pruning isn't a new theory (1982), nor does it account for all cases of schizophrenia, which would be necessary if it was the actual cause. As usual, you read some pop-sci and conflate correlation with causation.



That's what the study proved:

"The new study, based on a genetic analysis of nearly 65,000 people from around the world, pinpointed a defective gene that appears to trigger excessive pruning.
Scientists believe it is this that underlies the symptoms of schizophrenia, a severe psychotic condition marked by a loosening grip on reality, delusions, paranoia and hallucinations"

And brain shrinkage in bipolar patients isn't neuroplascisity.

"British researchers confirmed this in 2007.
They found people with bipolar disorder suffer from an accelerated shrinking of their brain.
Imaging studies carried out four years apart showed loss of brain tissue in the areas controlling memory, face recognition and coordination."

"appears", "believe", and "risk" are significant qualifiers of which you seem to be scientifically ignorant. Increased risk means that there is not a one for one correlation that could prove causation. The effect of the actual cause must always obtain.

And yes, brain shrinkage can be caused by neural plasticity. Look it up for yourself. Challenge your own bias for once.
"Brain plasticity science is the study of a physical process. Gray matter can actually shrink or thicken; neural connections can be forged and refined or weakened and severed." - https://www.brainhq.com/brain-resources/...plasticity
Reply
#44
Quote:People generally posit behaviors in others that they subconsciously accept of themselves. If that's not what you're doing, how do you know they aren't just making up excuses for their behavior?

Because people are known to do irrational things when swept up by emotion. It's a solid fact of human nature.

Quote:Where did I admit anything of the sort?

Then why are you bringing up narratives in mental illness as if it somehow proves freewill? Do you even know what you're arguing anymore?

Quote:"In psychological terms a payoff coming from a distressful problem is called secondary gains. Many people who have psychological distress (or physical illness) get attention, support, more love, or other reinforcers that make change less attractive. These secondary gains are often not perceived as worth the cost, yet their significance may be minimized. Perhaps, potentially on an unconscious level, these gains significantly buffer the pain, tipping the scales to choosing to remain the same rather than change." - https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the...eel-better

What the fuck does that prove about freewill?

Quote:"appears", "believe", and "risk" are significant qualifiers of which you seem to be scientifically ignorant. Increased risk means that there is not a one for one correlation that could prove causation. The effect of the actual cause must always obtain.

The study speaks for itself. What do you think schizophrenia is? Someone acting weird just to get attention? lol!

Quote:And yes, brain shrinkage can be caused by neural plasticity. Look it up for yourself. Challenge your own bias for once.
"Brain plasticity science is the study of a physical process. Gray matter can actually shrink or thicken; neural connections can be forged and refined or weakened and severed." - https://www.brainhq.com/brain-resources/...plasticity

No..the shrinkage witnessed with bipolar patients wasn't neuroplascity. It was brain deterioration.. You're just making shit up. Read the entire study to learn the difference. Also read this other study..

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2003/05/4777/s...ain-damage
Reply
#45
(Oct 8, 2017 05:10 AM)Magical Realist Wrote:
Quote:People generally posit behaviors in others that they subconsciously accept of themselves. If that's not what you're doing, how do you know they aren't just making up excuses for their behavior?

Because people are known to do irrational things when swept up by emotion. It's a solid fact of human nature.
Irrational is a far cry from murder. Rolleyes
Quote:
Quote:Where did I admit anything of the sort?

Then why are you bringing up narratives in mental illness as if it somehow proves freewill? Do you even know what you're arguing anymore?
It means that if your narrative includes free will, then you can actually change your narrative. But if you're telling yourself you can't do anything to change your circumstance, you won't. You have to believe in personal change before it can happen. Just like how you can't actually help anyone who doesn't want help.

I only ever said that people could change their own "mood". You're the one who erected the straw man that that had anything to do with mental illness. "deluded in their thinking or blinded by rage or jealousy" (your words) are not mental illnesses. Deluded is not the same as clinically delusional.
Quote:
Quote:"In psychological terms a payoff coming from a distressful problem is called secondary gains. Many people who have psychological distress (or physical illness) get attention, support, more love, or other reinforcers that make change less attractive. These secondary gains are often not perceived as worth the cost, yet their significance may be minimized. Perhaps, potentially on an unconscious level, these gains significantly buffer the pain, tipping the scales to choosing to remain the same rather than change." - https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the...eel-better

What the fuck does that prove about freewill?
It's in the title of the article, dimwit. "Why Don't You Want To Feel Better?"
I know you must think all of your desires are foisted upon you by your genetics and the external world, but there are priorities, insecurities, and moods that anyone can change to alter their perspective (which is probably the single biggest goal of any therapy).
Quote:
Quote:"appears", "believe", and "risk" are significant qualifiers of which you seem to be scientifically ignorant. Increased risk means that there is not a one for one correlation that could prove causation. The effect of the actual cause must always obtain.

The study speaks for itself. What do you think schizophrenia is? Someone acting weird just to get attention? lol!
Really? Another sad straw man? O_o
Quote:
Quote:And yes, brain shrinkage can be caused by neural plasticity. Look it up for yourself. Challenge your own bias for once.
"Brain plasticity science is the study of a physical process. Gray matter can actually shrink or thicken; neural connections can be forged and refined or weakened and severed." - https://www.brainhq.com/brain-resources/...plasticity

No..the shrinkage witnessed with bipolar patients wasn't neuroplascity. It was brain deterioration.. You're just making shit up. Read the entire study to learn the difference. Also read this other study..

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2003/05/4777/s...ain-damage

So of the 2 million bipolar sufferers in the US, they could only find 15 test subjects? Even you have to admit that's a ridiculously small sample size to be inferring anything but what the title of that article says...."suggests". I mean, even if you are as scientifically illiterate as you seem, certainly you can still understand simple English.

"The brain's ability to change its organization and function is necessary for normal development of the nervous system and it makes it possible to adapt to changing demands but it can also cause disorders when going awry. This property, known as neural plasticity, is only evident when induced, very much like genes. Plastic changes may be programmed and providing a “midcourse correction” during childhood development. If that is not executed in the normal way severe developmental disorders such as autism may results." - https://academic.oup.com/ptps/article/19...od-and-Bad

You were saying? Rolleyes

(Oct 8, 2017 04:08 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote:
(Oct 8, 2017 12:13 AM)Syne Wrote: Where did I link to that? Show me. Or are you just lying again? Rolleyes

(Oct 6, 2017 02:12 AM)Syne Wrote: But even if you view the evolutionary development of religion as a by-product, it's a by-product that reinforces the cooperation that led us to modern times. IOW, it has a purpose beyond comfort. And I've yet to see evidence claiming to show religion is primarily espoused for comfort.

From your link…

"Princess Alice, the kids were told, had a magical power: Alice could make herself invisible. Then the children were shown a chair and were told that Alice was sitting in the chair and that Alice would watch them play the game after the researcher left."

The story of the Elf on the Shelf describes how Santa's "scout Elves" hide in people's homes to watch over events. Once everyone goes to bed, the scout elf flies back to the North Pole to report to Santa the activities, good and bad that have taken place throughout the day.

Kate Tuttle calls it "a marketing juggernaut dressed up as a tradition" whose purpose is "to spy on kids" and that one shouldn't "bully your child into thinking that good behavior equals gifts."
Thank you. Since I'm aware of other, similar studies, I skimmed right over that part.

But you did not answer my question:
"From what I read, "the inhibitory effects of being told about Princess Alice were equivalent to having a real adult present". Are you saying belief in god is equivalent to simply having someone else present? That seems like a very silly notion."

Quote:
Syne Wrote:Now cite me these verses you imagine say you need faith but no responsibility or that counseling bravery means everything will be okay.

Everything Will Be Okay
LOL! You're going to have to cite specific examples, because it is painfully obvious you don't understand what your citing...and I don't have the patience to explain one only for you to say that's not the one you meant. Dodgy
Quote:
Syne Wrote:The concept of original sin varies between our fallible nature to total excoriation.

"We despised him and rejected him;
he endured suffering and pain.
No one would even look at him—
we ignored him as if he were nothing.
But he endured the suffering that should have been ours,
the pain that we should have borne.
All the while we thought that his suffering
was punishment sent by God.
But because of our sins he was wounded,
beaten because of the evil we did.
We are healed by the punishment he suffered,
made whole by the blows he received."
- Isaiah 53:3-5

Does that sound like a metaphor or something that happened in the beginning?

Oh, Isaiah’s prophecies of the Messiah?  Do you really want to go there or would you like to read all of them first?
If you don't like that one, cite an excerpt that you think significantly differs.
Quote:
Syne Wrote:Or are you saying that belief systems do, indeed, promote more cooperation? O_o

Wouldn't that belie your previous, "I don’t think that our cooperation is a by-product of the conception of god"? O_o

A belief system doesn’t have to include the conception of god.
Then cite one comparable to religion in promoting cooperation. O_o
Quote:
Syne Wrote:And every notable US abolitionist was religious, and often cited their religion as the reason to end slavery.

"But the funny part about all of this awareness-raising is that it doesn’t accomplish all that much. The underlying assumption of so many attempts to influence people’s behavior — that they make bad choices because they lack the information to empower them to do otherwise — is, except in a few cases, false. And what’s worse, awareness-raising done in the wrong way can actually backfire, encouraging the negative activities in question. One of the favorite pastimes of a certain brand of concerned progressive, then, may be much more effective at making them feel good about themselves than actually improving the world in any substantive way." - http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/07/awa...rated.html

No, the funny part about all of this is that religion promoted slavery.

You were saying?

Cite your source. And remember, you'd have to show that slavery was promoted over and above the prevailing culture of the time.
Reply
#46
(Oct 6, 2017 02:12 AM)Syne Wrote: Only because you think people are only religious to comfort themselves.

I don’t think that.  


(Oct 8, 2017 08:20 AM)Syne Wrote: Thank you. Since I'm aware of other, similar studies, I skimmed right over that part.

But you did not answer my question:
"From what I read, "the inhibitory effects of being told about Princess Alice were equivalent to having a real adult present". Are you saying belief in god is equivalent to simply having someone else present?

From your link:

"If God is everywhere and sees everything, people curb their selfish impulses even when there's no one around. Because with God, there is no escape. "God knows what you did," Johnson says, "and God is going to punish you for it and that's an incredibly powerful deterrent. If you do it again, he's going to know and he is going to tally up your good deals and bad deeds and you will suffer the consequences for it either in this life or in an afterlife."

Everywhere you look around the world, you find examples of people altering their behavior because of concerns for supernatural consequences of their actions. They don't do things that they consider bad because they think they'll be punished for it."

You don’t see any way that cooperation could have evolved from self-preservation and reproductive strategies?

Syne Wrote:Or are you saying that belief systems do, indeed, promote more cooperation? O_o

Wouldn't that belie your previous, "I don’t think that our cooperation is a by-product of the conception of god"? O_o

Secular Sanity Wrote:A belief system doesn’t have to include the conception of god.

Syne Wrote:Then cite one comparable to religion in promoting cooperation. O_o
 

Political.  Do you think that all belief systems are good because they promote cooperation?

Secular Sanity Wrote:Isaiah’s prophecies of the Messiah?  Do you really want to go there or would you like to read all of them first?

Syne Wrote:If you don't like that one, cite an excerpt that you think significantly differs.

No, we can stick with that one.  Does Isaiah 7:14 sound like a metaphor?

Syne Wrote:Cite your source. And remember, you'd have to show that slavery was promoted over and above the prevailing culture of the time.

Justification doesn't promote it, how so?
Reply
#47
Quote:Irrational is a far cry from murder.  Rolleyes

Murder isn't an irrational act? lol!

Quote:It means that if your narrative includes free will, then you can actually change your narrative. But if you're telling yourself you can't do anything to change your circumstance, you won't. You have to believe in personal change before it can happen. Just like how you can't actually help anyone who doesn't want help.

I only ever said that people could change their own "mood". You're the one who erected the straw man that that had anything to do with mental illness. "deluded in their thinking or blinded by rage or jealousy" (your words) are not mental illnesses. Deluded is not the same as clinically delusional.

Uh no. Telling yourself you have freewill doesn't suddenly give you freewill. It just gives you the delusion of freewill. I proved this with examples of mental illness, moods, and one's own psychology.



Quote:It's in the title of the article, dimwit. "Why Don't You Want To Feel Better?"
I know you must think all of your desires are foisted upon you by your genetics and the external world, but there are priorities, insecurities, and moods that anyone can change to alter their perspective (which is probably the single biggest goal of any therapy).

The fact that you can alter your mood and feelings does not prove we have freewill. People with mood disorders cannot do that. Their moods come upon them without their choosing. And they cannot be turned off like a light switch. I've likened depression to feeling very tired. You can try to be positive and quote optimistic aphorisms to yourself but it's not going stop you from being depressed. You just have to endure it until it passes. That or get some sleep.


Quote:Really? Another sad straw man? O_o

So what causes schizophrenia?

Quote:So of the 2 million bipolar sufferers in the US, they could only find 15 test subjects? Even you have to admit that's a ridiculously small sample size to be inferring anything but what the title of that article says...."suggests". I mean, even if you are as scientifically illiterate as you seem, certainly you can still understand simple English.

15 bipolar brains showing the same deterioriation and chemical imbalances compared to 20 normal brains? I guess it's all just a big coincidence. lol!

Oh look! Here's another study with 30 more subjects proving brain deterioriation with bipolarism:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...239090416Y

Here's another study of 10 more bipolar brains:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2844920/

To be honest I'm not a total determinist. I just don't believe we all have freewill all the time. We have more or less control over ourselves depending on the situation. An addict has very little control. A healthy person with a strong mind has alot. But there are always factors pushing and pulling us one way or another. That's why empathy is better than moral judgement. We need to put ourselves in each other's shoes to understand each other. Ascribing freewill to them is all too often an excuse to condemn and label and hate.
Reply
#48
(Oct 8, 2017 05:58 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote:
(Oct 6, 2017 02:12 AM)Syne Wrote: Only because you think people are only religious to comfort themselves.

I don’t think that.  
Well, until you manage to tell us what you DO think, we're left to come to our own conclusions, aren't we? Why did it take you so long to deny it? Dodgy
Why do you think people are/become religious?
Quote:
(Oct 8, 2017 08:20 AM)Syne Wrote: Thank you. Since I'm aware of other, similar studies, I skimmed right over that part.

But you did not answer my question:
"From what I read, "the inhibitory effects of being told about Princess Alice were equivalent to having a real adult present". Are you saying belief in god is equivalent to simply having someone else present?

From your link:

"If God is everywhere and sees everything, people curb their selfish impulses even when there's no one around. Because with God, there is no escape. "God knows what you did," Johnson says, "and God is going to punish you for it and that's an incredibly powerful deterrent. If you do it again, he's going to know and he is going to tally up your good deals and bad deeds and you will suffer the consequences for it either in this life or in an afterlife."

Everywhere you look around the world, you find examples of people altering their behavior because of concerns for supernatural consequences of their actions. They don't do things that they consider bad because they think they'll be punished for it."

You don’t see any way that cooperation could have evolved from self-preservation and reproductive strategies?
Outgroup cooperation? No, there is no evidence outgroup cooperation evolved as a natural survival strategy.

Apparently, neither you nor Johnson understand even basic things about religion. Christianity, for example, doesn't teach that every bad behavior will bring punitive consequence. Only that sin in general leads to death and hell, and faith, with or without works (depending on the denomination), avoids this. Children are the only ones likely to think as described above, because they can only understand in relatively simple terms. While it's true the Bible says you will be judged for all your actions, those alone do not determine your fate.

As adults, religious people do not do bad because they are responsible adults who actually believe in what is right, and have practice thinking of their actions in terms of an objective perspective.
Quote:
Syne Wrote:Or are you saying that belief systems do, indeed, promote more cooperation? O_o

Wouldn't that belie your previous, "I don’t think that our cooperation is a by-product of the conception of god"? O_o

Secular Sanity Wrote:A belief system doesn’t have to include the conception of god.

Syne Wrote:Then cite one comparable to religion in promoting cooperation. O_o
 

Political.  Do you think that all belief systems are good because they promote cooperation?
Really? Political systems aren't inherently adversarial? Do they promote voluntary outgroup cooperation or simply force it?
And on par with religion? Religions have outlasted every government known to man.

Again, we're talking specifically about outgroup cooperation.
Natural survival strategies already provide ingroup cooperation...which is what politics tends to be.
Quote:
Secular Sanity Wrote:Isaiah’s prophecies of the Messiah?  Do you really want to go there or would you like to read all of them first?

Syne Wrote:If you don't like that one, cite an excerpt that you think significantly differs.

No, we can stick with that one.  Does Isaiah 7:14 sound like a metaphor?
There's some dispute over whether the Hebrew was translated correctly..."young woman" being the same as "virgin".

But this is an obvious non-sequitur from your discussion of why Jesus died. Do you plan to return to that any time soon? Or is this just a trolling attempt to use a non-sequitur to dismiss what obviously wasn't a metaphor? O_o
Quote:
Syne Wrote:Cite your source. And remember, you'd have to show that slavery was promoted over and above the prevailing culture of the time.

Justification doesn't promote it, how so?
Who said religious people didn't promote it? I said, "show that slavery was promoted over and above the prevailing culture of the time".
Otherwise you're condemning it for nothing more than anachronistic presentism.






(Oct 8, 2017 06:36 PM)Magical Realist Wrote:
Quote:Irrational is a far cry from murder.  Rolleyes

Murder isn't an irrational act? lol!
All murders are irrational but not all irrational acts are murder. You made the leap from irrational to murder, jumping from a "bad day at work" to killing "wife's lover". So yes, you making that leap does reflect on you.
Quote:
Quote:It means that if your narrative includes free will, then you can actually change your narrative. But if you're telling yourself you can't do anything to change your circumstance, you won't. You have to believe in personal change before it can happen. Just like how you can't actually help anyone who doesn't want help.

I only ever said that people could change their own "mood". You're the one who erected the straw man that that had anything to do with mental illness. "deluded in their thinking or blinded by rage or jealousy" (your words) are not mental illnesses. Deluded is not the same as clinically delusional.

Uh no. Telling yourself you have freewill doesn't suddenly give you freewill. It just gives you the delusion of freewill. I proved this with examples of mental illness, moods, and one's own psychology.

LOL! You demonstrably have no idea what constitutes proof. Again, you're arguing from incredulity, just because you can't imagine anyone having such capabilities. It's sad. Cry

Quote:
Quote:It's in the title of the article, dimwit. "Why Don't You Want To Feel Better?"
I know you must think all of your desires are foisted upon you by your genetics and the external world, but there are priorities, insecurities, and moods that anyone can change to alter their perspective (which is probably the single biggest goal of any therapy).

The fact that you can alter your mood and feelings does not prove we have freewill. People with mood disorders cannot do that. Their moods come upon them without their choosing. And they cannot be turned off like a light switch. I've likened depression to feeling very tired.  You can try to be positive and quote optimistic aphorisms to yourself but it's not going stop you from being depressed. You just have to endure it until it passes. That or get some sleep.

Hey, at least you're making progress.

(Oct 6, 2017 11:27 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: And moods aren't changed by choice either. There is no freewill to change these things.

You're now saying they can be altered.

"One in 10 adults in the United States struggles with depression, and antidepressant medications are a common way to treat the condition. However, pills aren't the only solution. Research shows that exercise is also an effective treatment. "For some people it works as well as antidepressants..." - https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-...depression

You can't choose to exercise? O_o
Or the secondary gains of remaining depressed are somehow thought to outweigh the suffering.
It's not about trying, it's about doing.

Quote:
Quote:Really? Another sad straw man? O_o

So what causes schizophrenia?
There are many hypothesized causes. Settling on one is premature, at best, and irresponsible, at worst. I favor:

"Many psychological mechanisms have been implicated in the development and maintenance of schizophrenia. Cognitive biases have been identified in those with the diagnosis or those at risk, especially when under stress or in confusing situations. Some cognitive features may reflect global neurocognitive deficits such as memory loss, while others may be related to particular issues and experiences." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophre...chological

Quote:
Quote:So of the 2 million bipolar sufferers in the US, they could only find 15 test subjects? Even you have to admit that's a ridiculously small sample size to be inferring anything but what the title of that article says...."suggests". I mean, even if you are as scientifically illiterate as you seem, certainly you can still understand simple English.

15 bipolar brains showing the same deterioriation and chemical imbalances compared to 20 normal brains? I guess it's all just a big coincidence. lol!

Oh look! Here's another study with 30 more subjects proving brain deterioriation with bipolarism:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...239090416Y

Here's another study of 10 more bipolar brains:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2844920/

There's no evidence of causation in any of those. Where's the evidence that brain size predicts bipolar before onset? And if you think an extra 40 cases significantly increases its probative nature... Rolleyes

Quote:To be honest I'm not a total determinist. I just don't believe we all have freewill all the time. We have more or less control over ourselves depending on the situation. An addict has very little control. A healthy person with a strong mind has alot. But there are always factors pushing and pulling us one way or another. That's why empathy is better than moral judgement. We need to put ourselves in each other's shoes to understand each other. Ascribing freewill to them is all too often an excuse to condemn and label and hate.

An addict believes they can't change their initial free decision to use. They are only bound by their own previous decisions and ongoing excuses. Their lack of control is simply a belief. Empathy only promotes ingroup favoritism. Evolutionary psychology does not, itself, lend to outgroup empathy. But we've gone over that before: https://www.scivillage.com/thread-3417-p...l#pid12692
Reply
#49
Quote:All murders are irrational but not all irrational acts are murder. You made the leap from irrational to murder, jumping from a "bad day at work" to killing "wife's lover". So yes, you making that leap does reflect on you.

I made the entirely logical leap from one irrational action to another, all of which share the common trait of being overwhelmed by emotion. Sinking in yet?

Quote:LOL! You demonstrably have no idea what constitutes proof. Again, you're arguing from incredulity, just because you can't imagine anyone having such capabilities. It's sad.

You have yet to explain how mental illness can occur if we all have freewill. It is a clear case of freewill not existing in some people. So that basically blows your whole theory out the water.

Quote:You're now saying they can be altered.

Somewhat. But not enough to prove freewill. Again, consult the cases of people with mood disorders. There is no glib thinking positive that makes such moodswings go away. And the fact that medications help alleviate it proves it is a brain based affliction. You do realize that being in a good mood is based on the amount of serotonin in your brain don't you?

Quote:You can't choose to exercise? O_o
Or the secondary gains of remaining depressed are somehow thought to outweigh the suffering.
It's not about trying, it's about doing.

Right. You can alter your brain chemical makeup by exercising. They're called endorphins. But it's not like you just chose to overcome the depression and made it go away. You had to change your physical body to do it, which again points to the physical basis of depression.

Quote:"Many psychological mechanisms have been implicated in the development and maintenance of schizophrenia. Cognitive biases have been identified in those with the diagnosis or those at risk, especially when under stress or in confusing situations. Some cognitive features may reflect global neurocognitive deficits such as memory loss, while others may be related to particular issues and experiences." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophre...chological

Neurocognitive deficits? Sounds like a brain thing to me.

Quote:There's no evidence of causation in any of those. Where's the evidence that brain size predicts bipolar before onset? And if you think an extra 40 cases significantly increases its probative nature...

The shrinkage is typical only of bipolar brains. That points to bipolarism being the cause. Mere natural neuroplasticity wouldn't be specific to one mental illness.

Quote:An addict believes they can't change their initial free decision to use. They are only bound by their own previous decisions and ongoing excuses.

LOL. Wrong. They are bound by the chemical dependency of their brain on the drug. It has nothing to do with their beliefs. The addiction is brain based and physical in nature. A clear demonstration of people being overwhelmed by factors beyond their own willpower. Which is why addicts always need help from others like intervention from the family, jailtime, and/or rehab. There is simply no freewill to go clean and stay clean all on their own.

Quote:Empathy only promotes ingroup favoritism.

Empathy applies universally. To ingroups and outgroups and people you know and people you don't know. It is the inherent bond of being human uniting us all. But don't worry..I don't expect you to understand empathy beyond what Wikipedia tells you.
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#50
for the casual readers following this thread...
i have done a little reading around anti anxiety medications for males over the age of 60 and roughly 1 out of every 2 men over 60 take either anti depresants or anti anxiety medication in the usa....
the family of medication falls under "psychiatric" drug and (roughly)around 60% of all men over 60 take around 3 to 5 different prescription only medications.
...
what are most USA men over 60 years old on statistically ?
heart/blood pressure medication
anti depresants/anti anxiety/anti psychotics
diabetes type medication

Quote: Wrote:Why would anyone freely choose to do evil? There must me something in them determining their actions beyond their choice---mental illness...

Only one of many factors I listed causing violence. Here's another you overlooked.

Quote: Wrote:Meaning they aren't exercising freewill then because they are deluded in their thinking or blinded by rage or jealousy. They are making a mistake of judgment due to overwhelming emotions, which doesn't equate to freely choosing that action.

Ghengis Khan
American european settlers
Hitlers' nazi's
the catholic church in the great crusades

all beleived genocide was perfectly normal.
Torture of children to death was normal

torturing women and children to death for personal amusement was very fashionable.

soo... when you start talking about "Good & Evil" are you talking about Christian bibblical Good & evil ?
because that type of good from back then was genocide and torturing children to death kinda "good".... Evil was using herbal medicines to heal a poor persons septic wound so then being tortured to death for practicing medicine.

yall got ya tin-foil hats on ?
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