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The ineffable + Life & death thought experiments + Haunting the living

#1
C C Offline
What, if anything, can be said about what is unsayable?
https://aeon.co/essays/what-if-anything-...-unsayable

EXCERPT: [...] We’re used to the idea that some of life’s most meaningful experiences are difficult, if not impossible, to describe. But what, precisely, does it mean to say that something is unsayable? Philosophers from Arthur Schopenhauer to Theodor Adorno and Roger Scruton have tended to see ineffability as a mere mark of the extraordinary, rather than being something extraordinary in itself. Yet I’d argue that we should take the concept of ineffability seriously – that we should ask what it is and where it comes from.

Clearly, this enquiry is full of pitfalls. If something is beyond words, then it’s hard to get a handle on what, if anything, it means. Ludwig Wittgenstein, for example, was convinced that it was nonsensical to try to speak about what lies outside the limits of language. Even so, he wrote an entire book about what cannot be said, the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus (1921), concluding with the observation: ‘Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.’

We might never be able to eff the ineffable, to paraphrase Douglas Adams’s comic detective Dirk Gently. But perhaps we can pinpoint the nature of the thing that can’t be expressed, or find a way to describe what it consists of. I believe that there are at least four possible candidates for a non-nonsensical answer: ineffable objects, ineffable truths, ineffable content, and ineffable knowledge....



Life-and-death thought experiments are correctly unsolvable
https://aeon.co/ideas/life-and-death-tho...unsolvable

EXCERPT: [...] That’s why I believe most such thought experiments are never satisfactorily solved. Indeed, I would suggest that the best way to use them is not to see them as puzzles to be solved at all. If we ever face such situations in real life, we will be forced to choose, and will have to do so based on the very particular circumstances of each case. The only general lesson we learn from these thought experiments is that there is sometimes a tragic conflict between life and what makes life valuable in the first place....



Ghosts and ghouls haunt the living with a message about life
https://aeon.co/ideas/ghosts-and-ghouls-...about-life

EXCERPT: There is, it would seem, no greater chasm than that which divides the living from the dead. We who still dwell on the side of life know this as we relegate the inert bodies of those so recently just like ourselves to the elements from which they came: earth or fire – ashes to ashes; air in the towers of the Zoroastrians; very occasionally, water. We do not just toss bodies over walls, whatever we might believe (or not believe) about a soul or an afterlife. We do it with care and with rituals: funeral and mourning. We do it because it is what humans do and have always done; it represents our entry into culture from nature. We live and have always lived with our dead. To do otherwise would be to expel the dead from the community of the living, to expunge them from history. But, at the same time as we honour our dead, we generally also want to keep a certain distance. We expect them to leave us alone in our world and remain safely in theirs. When they don’t, it is a sign that something has gone very wrong....
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#2
Zinjanthropos Offline
(Jan 22, 2017 12:00 AM)C C Wrote: EXCERPT: [...] We’re used to the idea that some of life’s most meaningful experiences are difficult, if not impossible, to describe. But what, precisely, does it mean to say that something is unsayable? Philosophers from Arthur Schopenhauer to Theodor Adorno and R
Ghosts and ghouls haunt the living with a message about life  
https://aeon.co/ideas/ghosts-and-ghouls-...about-life

EXCERPT: There is, it would seem, no greater chasm than that which divides the living from the dead. We who still dwell on the side of life know this as we relegate the inert bodies of those so recently just like ourselves to the elements from which they came: earth or fire – ashes to ashes; air in the towers of the Zoroastrians; very occasionally, water. We do not just toss bodies over walls, whatever we might believe (or not believe) about a soul or an afterlife. We do it with care and with rituals: funeral and mourning. We do it because it is what humans do and have always done; it represents our entry into culture from nature. We live and have always lived with our dead. To do otherwise would be to expel the dead from the community of the living, to expunge them from history. But, at the same time as we honour our dead, we generally also want to keep a certain distance. We expect them to leave us alone in our world and remain safely in theirs. When they don’t, it is a sign that something has gone very wrong....

If there's a portal between the world of the living and the dead then the door only opens one way. From what I've heard over the years is that the dead seem to get stuck in the living's world now and then. My question is, why aren't the living wandering around in the land of the dead? If they do then what is the word for it and how do the dead react whenever a live one enters their world?

Perhaps one might argue that the living are from that world and return once they die. The dead world it seems is not the diversion or the anomaly, but the norm. But wouldn't that mean the door opens both ways?
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#3
C C Offline
(Jan 22, 2017 01:48 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: My question is, why aren't the living wandering around in the land of the dead? If they do then what is the word for it and how do the dead react whenever a live one enters their world?

Perhaps one might argue that the living are from that world and return once they die. The dead world it seems is not the diversion or the anomaly, but the norm. But wouldn't that mean the door opens both ways?


It's arguably conceivable in even the context of an anti-panpsychism orthodoxy (materialism or whatever fits).

An absence of everything (without consciousness) would be the fundamental norm for the dead, the as yet unborn, and the non-biological cosmos in general (in terms of "what it's like" to be the latter).

The "living" visit that absence whenever they have dreamless sleep or any type of temporary shutdown of both introspective / extrospective experience.

Whereas the "dead" visit us in the memories, writings, images, films / videos, audio recordings and other works and influences they leave behind -- and in personal dreams, hallucinations, imaginations. Even as prolific memes / thought-viruses should they be converted into such communicable information parasites. The superficiality of these "visitations" such could still roughly equate to the function of "ghosts", since the general idea of ghosts may not entail their being anything more than appearances or apparitions of ritualistic behavior (i.e., not necessarily possessing thoughts or mental events, though specific sub-categories of the concept could sport that).
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#4
Zinjanthropos Offline
I tried to find something on it googling but no luck, hasn't anyone ever postulated that what we consider the living world, is actually the dead zone for something else? IOW's we are the ghosts!!!  Big Grin
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#5
C C Offline
(Jan 23, 2017 02:26 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: I tried to find something on it googling but no luck, hasn't anyone ever postulated that what we consider the living world, is actually the dead zone for something else? IOW's we are the ghosts!!!  Big Grin


Aldous Huxley may have ventured close to the territory with "Maybe this world is another planet's Hell".
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#6
Zinjanthropos Offline
(Jan 23, 2017 06:57 PM)C C Wrote:
(Jan 23, 2017 02:26 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: I tried to find something on it googling but no luck, hasn't anyone ever postulated that what we consider the living world, is actually the dead zone for something else? IOW's we are the ghosts!!!  Big Grin


Aldous Huxley may have ventured close to the territory with "Maybe this world is another planet's Hell".

Ya, in reality we're probably pure energy beings. Forced to exist in the matter world, stripped of our pure energy status for reasons unknown, maybe we broke a law. Can't destroy us but a little energy metamorphosis downgrade has put us here. It's like a temporary death sentence for pure energy beings. We're not really dead, just doing time. So if you see a ghost, it's really the pure side checking in on you. Perhaps the ghosts we see are the prison guards because we're incarcerated here.  Do you think there are those who I could convince of this? People who would believe this? I think that under the right circumstances, some people will believe anything Big Grin
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