Can retrocausality solve action-at-a-distance? + Consciousness is made of atoms, too

#1
C C Offline
Can retrocausality solve the puzzle of action-at-a-distance?
https://aeon.co/essays/can-retrocausalit...a-distance

EXCERPTS: [...] Over the past forty years, a lot of ingenuity has gone into designing experiments to test the quantum predictions on which Bell’s result depends. Quantum mechanics has passed them all with flying colours. Just last year, three new experiments claimed to close almost all the remaining loopholes. ‘The most rigorous test of quantum theory ever carried out has confirmed that the “spooky action-at-a-distance” that [Einstein] famously hated… is an inherent part of the quantum world,’ as Nature put it.

Newton once remarked that if he’d seen further than his predecessors, it was because he stood on the shoulders of giants. For the would-be Newtons of the present century, replicating that feat has become newly challenging. It is not just that you need to be a genius to scale such heights. With Newton, Einstein and Schrödinger huddled on one side, and Bell on the other, the shoulders of the giants now seem seriously out of line.

The surprising news is that there’s a simple and elegant solution to the problem – an option that Bell himself missed, apparently, because he confused it for something else. With Bell’s authority behind it, the confusion persists to this day, and the solution goes almost unnoticed. Yet if it works, it explains Bell’s correlations without Schrödinger’s ‘magic’ and it gets our giants back in line. Quantum mechanics no longer seems in tension with special relativity, and Bell can agree with Newton, Einstein and Schrödinger that there is no action at a distance.

[...] With superdeterminism filed for posterity where it belongs – under ‘Even giants make mistakes’ – it is easy to read Bell’s Theorem as an argument for retrocausality. The argument shows that quantum mechanics implies that the alternative to retrocausality is action-at-a-distance. But ‘that would be magic’, as Schrödinger put it, and it conflicts with special relativity. So retrocausality it should be.

At this point, some readers may feel that, while action-at-a-distance is peculiar, it’s not half as odd as the present affecting the past. Retrocausality suggests the kind of paradoxes familiar from time-travel stories. If we could affect the past, couldn’t we signal to our ancestors in some way that would prevent our own existence? Luckily for the Paris option, it turns out that the kind of subtle retrocausality needed to explain Bell’s correlations doesn’t have to have such consequences. In simple cases, we can see that it couldn’t be used to signal, for the same reason that entanglement itself can’t be used to signal. But first, let’s consider a couple of other objections that critics raise at this point.

Physicists sometimes object that if retrocausality can’t be used to signal then it doesn’t have any experimental consequences. We physicists are interested in testable hypotheses, everything else is mere philosophy, they proclaim (using ‘philosophy’ in its pejorative sense!). But retrocausality offers an explanation of the results of all the standard experimental tests of the Bell correlations. If it works, it is confirmed by these experiments just as much as action-at-a-distance is confirmed. Experiments alone won’t distinguish between the two proposals, but this is no more a reason for ignoring retrocausality than it is for ignoring action-at-a-distance. The choice between the two needs to be made on other grounds – eg, on the basis that retrocausality is easier to reconcile with special relativity.

Either way, the result will be that our naive picture of time needs to be revised in the light of a new understanding of physics

Some readers may raise a more global objection to retrocausality. Ordinarily, we think that the past is fixed while the future is open, or partly so. Doesn’t our freedom to affect the future depend on this openness? How could we affect what was already fixed? These are deep philosophical waters, but we don’t have to paddle out very far to see that we have some options. We can say that, according to the retrocausal proposal, quantum theory shows that the division between what is fixed and what is open doesn’t line up neatly with the distinction between past and future. Some of the past turns out to be open, too, in whatever sense the future is open.

To understand what sense that is, we’d need to swim out a lot further. Is the openness ‘out there in the world’, or is it a matter of our own viewpoint as agents, making up our minds how to act? Fortunately, we don’t really need an answer: whatever works for the future will work for the past, too. Either way, the result will be that our naive picture of time needs to be revised in the light of a new understanding of physics – a surprising conclusion, perhaps, but hardly a revolutionary one, more than a century after special relativity wrought its own changes on our understanding of space and time....



Consciousness Is Made of Atoms, Too
http://m.nautil.us/blog/consciousness-is...-atoms-too

EXCERPTS: In his first lecture on physics to freshmen and sophomores at the California Institute of Technology, in 1961-62, Richard Feynman said:

"If, in some cataclysm, all of scientific knowledge were to be destroyed, and only one sentence passed on to the next generations of creatures, what statement would contain the most information in the fewest words? I believe it is the atomic hypothesis (or the atomic fact, or whatever you wish to call it) that all things are made of atoms—little particles that move around in perpetual motion, attracting each other when they are a little distance apart, but repelling upon being squeezed into one another. In that one sentence, you will see, there is an enormous amount of information about the world, if just a little imagination and thinking are applied."

[...] Sensations are the building blocks of consciousness. They must first be combined into perceptions and converted into objects in the environment. [...] the capacity to shape, edit, and organize this neural content, present or remembered, into a picture, experience, or awareness of the “world.” [...]

In 1934, the Estonian biologist Jakob von Uexküll published a monograph titled, "A Stroll Through the Worlds of Animals and Men" [...] in which he attempted to show that every animal creates a “world” (he called it its umwelt) from stimuli in the environment to which it responds. Even an animal such as the common wood tick, with which he begins his essay, creates such a world. [...] These three stimuli alone create an umwelt for the tick, “impoverished” as it may be. [...] Those portions, converted into digital form, are the sensations that constitute its tiny world.

There is nothing “mental” or “physical” in this account of sensations. That distinction makes sense only much further down the line in the evolution of neural systems and requires the development of memory and neural plasticity along with a far richer sensory world than the wood tick’s....
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#2
Syne Offline
Parsimony dictates that we use only the minimal working assumptions. Action-at-a-distance is what we observe. We have no reason to believe that retrocausality exists other than the aesthetics between incompatible theories. Does assuming retrocausality make anything work better? No. It just appeases our desire for a single, unified view of physics. IOW, retrocausality is wishful thinking.
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#3
Magical Realist Offline
"Effects can theoretically precede their causes. But only in the past decade or so has the technology finally existed to test the idea. An increasing number of truly mind-blowing experiments are now confirming what Yakir Aharonov, for example, intuited already in the 1960s—that every single causal event in our world, every single interaction between two particles, is not only propogating an influence “forward” in the intuitive billiard-ball fashion but also carrying channels of influence backward from the future to the present and from the present to the past.

Until now, physicists have misinterpreted this whole half of causation as “randomness”—quantum indeterminacy. But Einstein never liked randomness as an inherent property of nature, and Aharonov wasn’t satisfied either. Newly developed experiments utilizing methods to “weakly measure” particles at one point in time and then conventionally measure a subset of them at a second, later point in time—or “post-selection”—are showing Aharonov was right and that Einstein’s intuitions were on the mark: God really doesn’t play dice; he’s truly a master archer instead, a divine Legolas who can swiftly turn and shoot causal arrows in both directions. Every interaction a particle has with its environment or with an experimental measurement apparatus perturbs seemingly “random” aspects of its behavior, such as its spin, at earlier points in its history. In 2009, a team at Rochester University actually used measurement of a portion of a laser beam at time point B (post-selection) to deviate those photons when measured, weakly enough to not disturb them too much, at an earlier time point A—retrocausation, in other words.

Other hints of causality’s two-faced-ness have been staring physicists in their one-way faces for a long time. Take for example the curious phenomenon known as “frustrated spontaneous emission.” It sounds like an embarrassing sexual complaint that psychotherapy might help with; actually it is a funny thing that happens to light-emitting atoms when they are put in surroundings that cannot absorb light. Ordinarily, atoms decay at a predictably random rate; but when there is nothing to receive their emitted photons, they get, well, frustrated, and withhold their photons. How do they “know” there is nowhere for their photons to go? According to physicist Ken Wharton, the answer is, again, retrocausation: The “random” decay of an atom is really determined retrocausally by the receiver of the photon it will emit. No receiver, then no decay. As in the Rochester experiment, some information is being passed, via that emitted photon (whenever there eventually is one), backward in time."-------------http://thenightshirt.com/?p=3920
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#4
Syne Offline
Where are the details of an experiment? All I'm seeing is an experimentally indistinguishable interpretation. And on a very kooky blog at that.
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#5
Magical Realist Offline
(Sep 25, 2016 02:26 AM)Syne Wrote: Where are the details of an experiment? All I'm seeing is an experimentally indistinguishable interpretation. And on a very kooky blog at that.

Look it up yourself. Your a big boy now..
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#6
Syne Offline
I'm asking because I've never found any. You can be snarky, but if you have nothing to cite you're a just crank.
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#7
Magical Realist Offline
(Sep 25, 2016 03:59 AM)Syne Wrote: I'm asking because I've never found any. You can be snarky, but if you have nothing to cite you're a just crank.

I have no intention of posting stuff for you that you can clearly look up for yourself. The article I cited included names and links to experiments done that confirm retrocausality. If you had actually read it you'd know that by now.

And if you had actually read CC's article instead of ignorantly dismissing it for parsimony reasons, you would've learned this:

"We now have two reasons for taking retrocausality seriously. First, it offers an elegant explanation of the Bell correlations, one that avoids action-at-a-distance and that allows quantum mechanics to play nicely with special relativity. Second, retrocausality preserves time-symmetry in the one-photon experiment. Both reasons turn on discreteness. It is not much of an exaggeration to say that the two experiments are really the same experiment, just differently arranged in space and time. Arranged with two photons, the cost of ignoring retrocausality is action-at-a-distance. Arranged with one photon, the cost of ignoring it is time-asymmetry. Two different ‘bads’ with the same take-home message: we should all be doing the Parisian zigzag!

At this point, defenders of other views of quantum mechanics will point out, rightly, that the zigzag idea is just a proposal; there isn’t yet a well-developed model of how to implement it. They will also insist that Parisian elegance is not compulsory. If you wish, you can choose to live with action-at-a-distance, or time-asymmetry, or shut-up-and-calculate-and-don’t-think-about-reality.

To this we say: of course, elegance is no more compulsory in science than it is in everyday life. We don’t claim that retrocausality is the only option, just that no one can insist that Bell has shown that Newton, Einstein and Schrödinger were wrong about action-at-a-distance until they explain why the Paris solution won’t work."
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#8
Syne Offline
(Sep 25, 2016 04:05 AM)Magical Realist Wrote:
(Sep 25, 2016 03:59 AM)Syne Wrote: I'm asking because I've never found any. You can be snarky, but if you have nothing to cite you're a just crank.

I have no intention of posting stuff for you that you can clearly look up for yourself. The article I cited included names and links to experiments done that confirm retrocausality. If you had actually read it you'd know that by now.

And if you had actually read CC's article instead of ignorantly dismissing it for parsimony reasons, you would've learned this:

"We now have two reasons for taking retrocausality seriously. First, it offers an elegant explanation of the Bell correlations, one that avoids action-at-a-distance and that allows quantum mechanics to play nicely with special relativity. Second, retrocausality preserves time-symmetry in the one-photon experiment. Both reasons turn on discreteness. It is not much of an exaggeration to say that the two experiments are really the same experiment, just differently arranged in space and time. Arranged with two photons, the cost of ignoring retrocausality is action-at-a-distance. Arranged with one photon, the cost of ignoring it is time-asymmetry. Two different ‘bads’ with the same take-home message: we should all be doing the Parisian zigzag!

At this point, defenders of other views of quantum mechanics will point out, rightly, that the zigzag idea is just a proposal; there isn’t yet a well-developed model of how to implement it. They will also insist that Parisian elegance is not compulsory. If you wish, you can choose to live with action-at-a-distance, or time-asymmetry, or shut-up-and-calculate-and-don’t-think-about-reality.

To this we say: of course, elegance is no more compulsory in science than it is in everyday life. We don’t claim that retrocausality is the only option, just that no one can insist that Bell has shown that Newton, Einstein and Schrödinger were wrong about action-at-a-distance until they explain why the Paris solution won’t work."

See, I said "experimentally distinguishable", and your own quote admits it is not. If they had an experimentally distinguishable interpretation (and let's not kid ourselves here...that's exactly what it would take for this to have any real hope of making QM and relativity "play nicely"), then they could demonstrate how their interpretation is better.

So like I said, I couldn't find any experimentally distinguishable reason to favor their interpretation...and if this is your best effort to provide it, you failed miserably. I get that this sounds exciting, especially in an area of study that hasn't seen much progress in so long. But if it's just another in an already long list of experimentally indistinguishable QM interpretations, then it doesn't even twitch the progress needle. Hell, retrocausation was proposed by Feynman.
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#9
Magical Realist Offline
Quote:See, I said "experimentally distinguishable", and your own quote admits it is not. If they had an experimentally distinguishable interpretation (and let's not kid ourselves here...that's exactly what it would take for this to have any real hope of making QM and relativity "play nicely"), then they could demonstrate how their interpretation is better.

So like I said, I couldn't find any experimentally distinguishable reason to favor their interpretation...and if this is your best effort to provide it, you failed miserably. I get that this sounds exciting, especially in an area of study that hasn't seen much progress in so long. But if it's just another in an already long list of experimentally indistinguishable QM interpretations, then it doesn't even twitch the progress needle. Hell, retrocausation was proposed by Feynman.

See? You weren't really interested in the experiments supporting retrocausality at all were you? You were just here as usual cherry picking words from articles you don't even read to support your own ignorant generalizations. Wow. Am I glad I didn't waste my time posting those links for you. It's always easier to make dubious claims about a field of research when you remain complacently ignorant of it isn't it?

"We now have two reasons for taking retrocausality seriously. First, it offers an elegant explanation of the Bell correlations, one that avoids action-at-a-distance and that allows quantum mechanics to play nicely with special relativity. Second, retrocausality preserves time-symmetry in the one-photon experiment. Both reasons turn on discreteness. It is not much of an exaggeration to say that the two experiments are really the same experiment, just differently arranged in space and time. Arranged with two photons, the cost of ignoring retrocausality is action-at-a-distance. Arranged with one photon, the cost of ignoring it is time-asymmetry. Two different ‘bads’ with the same take-home message: we should all be doing the Parisian zigzag!"
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#10
Syne Offline
Those two "reasons" are not experimentally justified, and they admit as much. Apparently they're at least more intellectually honest than you are. Did YOU even read the parts I put in bold for you? Do YOU even understand what experimentally distinguishable means? It really does not seem that you do.

It's easier to do science by remaining skeptical. The truly ignorant rush to drool over the next new shiny, without pausing to evaluate where an experimentally equivalent interpretation will have any real impact on what we can accomplish. Apparently, you're not up to the task...so you feel you must lash out at those who are. And I have zero doubt that you will now continue to heap thinly veiled ad hominems in order to avoid any embarrassing attempts to support your silly claim that this is experimentally verified.
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