Research Rethinking consciousness: Could everything from animals to AI be aware?

[Zinjanthropos]

From the OP..

“We can directly observe behaviors and anatomies, but not thoughts and feelings,” Dr. Sebo writes

So we can't tell whether (for example) .. a cat is frightened or not. Or is it just Dr. Sebo that can't tell .. because he's a psychopath?

Sebo is animal fat according to Spanish dictionary. Anyway I digress and the guard is up.

I think there’s one thing all living creatures share, self preservation or if you want…survival instinct. Where did it come from?

Just thinking about first life gathered around the rim of a deep ocean smoker, all vying for a prime location. Not enough room so the ones in the back quickly evolved predatory behavior and started chewing on their neighbours to get closer. For some it was easier to cannibalize and stay put. The ones in front quickly evolved predatory counter measures and the arms race was on.

That first cell to dine on its brethren, did it consciously choose to cannibalize? Was it instinctive and if so how did this instinct come about? It’s like neither consciousness or instinct even existed in the first living organism. Why did self preservation become the norm, there are no Schmoo’s in the world that I know of.

[geordief]

From the OP..

“We can directly observe behaviors and anatomies, but not thoughts and feelings,” Dr. Sebo writes

So we can't tell whether (for example) .. a cat is frightened or not. Or is it just Dr. Sebo that can't tell .. because he's a psychopath?

Sebo is animal fat according to Spanish dictionary. Anyway I digress and the guard is up.

I think there’s one thing all living creatures share, self preservation or if you want…survival instinct. Where did it come from?

Just thinking about first life gathered around the rim of a deep ocean smoker, all vying for a prime location. Not enough room so the ones in the back quickly evolved predatory behavior and started chewing on their neighbours to get closer. For some it was easier to cannibalize and stay put. The ones in front quickly evolved predatory counter measures and the arms race was on.

That first cell to dine on its brethren, did it consciously choose to cannibalize? Was it instinctive and if so how did this instinct come about? It’s like neither consciousness or instinct even existed in the first living organism. Why did self preservation become the norm, there are no Schmoo’s in the world that I know of.

First "thoughts" not just internal organisation of interactions with the outside world?

Interactions that were accidental (not canabalisation ;accidental  but deadly displacements during the jostling towards the light)but which were favoured or disfavoured by the pressures of evolution.

As mentation became more sophisticated the useful illusion of the organism having an identity independent (rather than tributary) of the environment   became established ,leading to where we are today.

[Magical Realist]

I believe animals are more conscious than we give them credit for. They say crows remember people's faces even after years. Alton Brown tells of an experience he had with an octopus that broke him down to tears!

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1744432093466903

[geordief]

I believe animals are more conscious than we give them credit for. They say crows remember people's faces even after years. Alton Brown tells of an experience he had with an octopus that broke him down to tears!

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1744432093466903

Not just 100% conscious within their own window of cognition (just like us)?

[Zinjanthropos]

Not sure if you need to be conscious to suffer from this but if a critter that’s not human suffers from it and they aren’t conscious then does it mean humans aren’t either?

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210...tic-stress

[Syne]

Not sure if you need to be conscious to suffer from this but if a critter that’s not human suffers from it and they aren’t conscious then does it mean humans aren’t either?

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210...tic-stress

That's how instincts adapt to the environment and circumstances, e.g. "part of an ancient, evolved response to danger." In animals, this is a pro-survival behavioral adaptation to danger. Hares having fewer young ensures the predatory population has dwindled significantly before hare population recovers.

But since humans have cognition, PTSD can cause less pro-survival responses. We have progressively labeled less and less traumatic experiences as trauma, and justified a PTSD response for less and less. And this is apart from how genuine trauma can warp our thinking in irrational ways that compound maladaptive behaviors.

IOW, in this case, consciousness is a liability compared to instincts in animals. Animals do not have the cognition to warp their instincts. Human consciousness is busy interpreting things, and often not correctly when emotions are involved.

[Zinjanthropos]

Not sure if you need to be conscious to suffer from this but if a critter that’s not human suffers from it and they aren’t conscious then does it mean humans aren’t either?

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210...tic-stress

That's how instincts adapt to the environment and circumstances, e.g. "part of an ancient, evolved response to danger." In animals, this is a pro-survival behavioral adaptation to danger. Hares having fewer young ensures the predatory population has dwindled significantly before hare population recovers.

But since humans have cognition, PTSD can cause less pro-survival responses. We have progressively labeled less and less traumatic experiences as trauma, and justified a PTSD response for less and less. And this is apart from how genuine trauma can warp our thinking in irrational ways that compound maladaptive behaviors.

IOW, in this case, consciousness is a liability compared to instincts in animals. Animals do not have the cognition to warp their instincts. Human consciousness is busy interpreting things, and often not correctly when emotions are involved.

One of the best posts I’ve read in a while. Made me wonder. Evolved separation from instincts at least allows us to think. I would still wager that top predators wouldn’t be too far behind us in that category and maybe, just maybe, have developed a conscious awareness albeit not as polished as ours. idk. More along the lines of being able to overcome the instincts of prey without losing theirs. We otoh, being as weak a creature that ever survived, rely on consciousness to survive at the cost of losing our own instincts.