Neil DeGrass Tyson vs Ben Shapiro on transgenderism

[Magical Realist]

That's a straw man. Again, if you could read, you'd see that I said: "Trauma, social pressure/contagion, grooming, etc.."
IOW, in case you still don't comprehend, I never said it's ONLY social contagion.

LOL You haven't provided any evidence for ANY of those explanations at all.. You're just making up bullshit to justify your hatred for transgender people. See a therapist...

[Syne]

Really? You're completely unaware of how trauma can be life-changing and possibly alter your deep seated identity? You've never heard of a crisis of faith or an identity crisis? Why would any adult need a "study" to explain these very basis human experiences. Man, you really are a hermit.

Trauma can alter the course of identity development and destabilize existing identity commitments.
- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...712030018X
Trauma can profoundly affect the sense of self, where both cognitive and somatic disturbances to the sense of self are reported clinically by individuals with posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD).
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7594748/

It's hard to imagine a bigger alteration to the development of identity than believing you're the opposite gender.

Social Contagion is defined as the spread of behaviors, attitudes, and affect through crowds and other types of social aggregates from one member to another. Adolescents are prone to social contagion because they may be especially susceptible to peer influence and social media.
...
Overall, recent studies provide evidence supporting social contagion in gun violence, bullying, cyberbullying and violent offending, and suicide...
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10090320/

If social contagion can influence suicide, why couldn't it influence any other aspect of life, especially when other mentioned factors exist?
Self harm and PTSD are known to be some effects of grooming.

And social media use is correlated to mental illness:

The use of social networks is strongly correlated with the development of anxiety and other psychological problems such as depression, insomnia, stress, decreased subjective happiness, and a sense of mental deprivation. The majority of the cited literature predicts that the likelihood of social media-induced mental health problems is directly proportional to the amount of time spent on these sites, the frequency of usage, and the number of platforms being used.
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10129173/

[stryder]

Just to throw a bit more spin to the room, lets consider a devils advocate pov where a particular evil enemy state operator is trying to undermine democracy.

One of those methods requires spreading and manipulating things that cause contention, such as gender issues.

If a "western" country is undermined by a perfora of misguided, wayward ideologies, then it's by definition completely dysfunctional. If those ideologies are counter to the beliefs of other countries and cultures, it further generates greater divide and worsens relations, even to the point of active hostility. (For instance there are a number of countries that outlaw homosexual and transgender related activities, not just with fines but violence.)

If you were the enemy state operating this, you'd do so because it keeps pressure on the country you are attacking, it even gets people to fight that country without you having to pay them or even command them to do so.

The way that evil enemy state can manipulate all this can be from the deceptions of propaganda (e.g. influencing social networking) to the direct manipulation of the influencers of such networks. (Whatever thoughts of transgression a person might have in their head, could well be an outside influence at work.)

In any event what I'm saying in a nutshell is that transgender has been weaponised.

[Syne]

I'm not sure it even requires an outside influence.

From what I can see, transgenderism has been weaponized from within. Dictating speech with pronouns and forbidding "dead naming," stealing opportunities and awards from women in sports, making women feel insecure in women's spaces, mutilating or sterilizing children before they can give legal consent, grooming children with gender ideology, etc..

Now a savvy enemy could very well try to amplify that signal, and leftists are wont to ally themselves with the likes of terrorists, but I'm not sure how effective such amplification actually is... except maybe on TikTok, where it's paired with the veneer of socially trendy peer pressure and clearly differs from what's allowed on that Chinese platform in China. So if anyone is successfully destabilizing the US (maybe the West in general), it may be China.

[Magical Realist]

Really? You're completely unaware of how trauma can be life-changing and possibly alter your deep seated identity? You've never heard of a crisis of faith or an identity crisis? Why would any adult need a "study" to explain these very basis human experiences. Man, you really are a hermit.

Trauma can alter the course of identity development and destabilize existing identity commitments.
- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...712030018X
Trauma can profoundly affect the sense of self, where both cognitive and somatic disturbances to the sense of self are reported clinically by individuals with posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD).
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7594748/

It's hard to imagine a bigger alteration to the development of identity than believing you're the opposite gender.

Social Contagion is defined as the spread of behaviors, attitudes, and affect through crowds and other types of social aggregates from one member to another. Adolescents are prone to social contagion because they may be especially susceptible to peer influence and social media.
...
Overall, recent studies provide evidence supporting social contagion in gun violence, bullying, cyberbullying and violent offending, and suicide...
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10090320/

If social contagion can influence suicide, why couldn't it influence any other aspect of life, especially when other mentioned factors exist?
Self harm and PTSD are known to be some effects of grooming.

And social media use is correlated to mental illness:

The use of social networks is strongly correlated with the development of anxiety and other psychological problems such as depression, insomnia, stress, decreased subjective happiness, and a sense of mental deprivation. The majority of the cited literature predicts that the likelihood of social media-induced mental health problems is directly proportional to the amount of time spent on these sites, the frequency of usage, and the number of platforms being used.
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10129173/

LOL Once again you provide zero evidence that something as biologically determined as gender identity can be altered by anything like trauma or social influence at all. "why can't it" isn't an argument. I've provided 3 scientific papers among many others proving transgender identity is based on their brain. So admit it. You're just making shit up because you have nothing at all. Come back someday when you actually have something.

"In his influential book: Behave, American neuroendocrinologist Robert Sapolsky writes that “it’s not the case that transgender individuals think they’re a different gender than they actually are. It’s more likely they got stuck with the bodies of a different sex from who they actually are.” With this remark, Sapolsky summarizes almost three decades of neuroscience research on brain and gender, and what it means to be transgender—no matter what stage of transitioning one is in.

Firstly, it’s important to state that many children and adolescents go through gender identity struggles. Yet, as they grow older, these struggles either resolve themselves or the child becomes a part of their LGBTQ2S+ community. In fact, only 23 per cent of childhood gender incongruence (discomfort caused by a mismatch between one’s gender and sex) leads to transgenderism. Surgically transitioning as a transgender person is also associated with improved psychological well-being.

According to one literature review, “Studies show that there is less than 1% of regrets, and a little more than 1% of suicides among operated subjects.” With some of my friends, I have personally been a witness to how their process of transitioning has benefited their lives. As mentioned before, the brain is uniquely sensitive and responsive to sex in a way the rest of the body isn’t, and when it comes to sexual development, the body and brain tend to develop asynchronously and at differing paces. By the time a boy hits puberty, they will most likely develop adult male genitals, acquire a deeper voice, and start growing body hair. However, due to atypical biological events in their past, their brain will resemble that of a female rather than a male. But what does this really mean?

A pioneering study from 1995 found that a specific brain region associated with sexual behavior was larger in males than females. Upon investigating this brain region size in male-to-female trans individuals, researchers found that this specific brain region was consistent with the transitioned sex (female) of the individual rather than their assigned sex at birth (male). Another follow-up study from 2000 tracked transsexuality as a function of the number of brain cells present in sexually expressive brain regions. Usually, males have twice as many brain cells in these brain areas responsible for sexual dimorphite attributes as compared to females.

After controlling for hormone statuses, sexual orientation(s), and social context(s), the study determined that male-to-female trans individuals did not have the cell count of their birth sex, but the sex they insisted they were. Likewise, female-to-male trans people had cell counts representing their gender orientation rather than their biological sex. These studies spearheaded the modern, and still progressive understanding of sex-gender mismatch: the idea that sex differences in the genitals take hold before sex differences in the brain, and that the lack of synchronization between these two processes might lay the foundation for transgenderism.

The unshakable conviction that one isn’t born in the right body is so far supported by science, but more research needs to be devoted to further replicating these results and exploring how gender identity is coordinated with brain function, hormones, genes, and more. What we do know is that being trans isn’t simply a feeling. It’s an intense and persistent psychological experience that originates from fully biological possibilities and results in distinct physical imprints on the brain as the organ matures.

Sometimes, transphobic rhetoric is bolstered by the claim that “switching genders is simply unnatural.” Even if something seems unlikely, not well-observed, or even downright impossible to us, the fact that it exists makes it, by definition, natural. The reality is that gender struggles are more common than people think, and it’s crucial that in an age of science, we as students commit ourselves to learning the facts of the situation and be open to new information with a compassionate mind."----- https://themedium.ca/the-brain-science-o...ansgender/

[Zinjanthropos]

Watched only first couple minutes but Tyson turned me off right away. Says as a scientist he cares only about what’s true and then gives credence to the social sciences as the real deal. Again feelings matter more than facts.

[C C]

Watched only first couple minutes but Tyson turned me off right away. Says as a scientist he cares only about what’s true and then gives credence to the social sciences as the real deal. Again feelings matter more than facts.

Back in the MeToo heyday, Tyson got hit by rape and sexual harassment allegations. He narrowly escaped permanent stigma (had he been fired, cancelled, etc) with the importance of his television projects and his minority status as a rare PoC spokesperson of science perhaps helping. Anyway, due to the angry reaction from the Left and feminism back then (landing on the suspect list), he's utterly beholden (to ensure repair of his public image) to support various agenda -- be a paladin for it, and especially not rock the boat with regard to identity politics. Beyond "put the squeeze on" situations like that, and similar to industry today and in the past, the administrations of institutes and organizations can micromanage the scientists they employ with the policies and rules they establish.

Watch Neil deGrasse Tyson get pissed as Michael Shermer calmly reads simple facts ... https://youtu.be/z49d4XFqAN4

https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/z49d4XFqAN4

[Magical Realist]

........

[Syne]

LOL Once again you provide zero evidence that something as biologically determined as gender identity can be altered by anything like trauma or social influence at all. "why can't it" isn't an argument. I've provided 3 scientific papers among many others proving transgender identity is based on their brain. So admit it. You're just making shit up because you have nothing at all. Come back someday when you actually have something.

I've repeatedly told you that the biological mechanism is neuroplasticity, but as usual, you're far too intellectually dishonest to admit it.
There's tons of evidence for neuroplasticity, and your citations are nothing but conjecture.

"In his influential book: Behave, American neuroendocrinologist Robert Sapolsky writes that “it’s not the case that transgender individuals think they’re a different gender than they actually are. It’s more likely they got stuck with the bodies of a different sex from who they actually are.”

What is it that "got stuck with the bodies of a different sex from who they actually are?" Their brain? Their brain that developed from the same DNA as their body "got stuck" in the wrong body? Maybe it's their soul. Did their soul "get stuck" in the wrong body? Is either even remotely science?

Firstly, it’s important to state that many children and adolescents go through gender identity struggles. Yet, as they grow older, these struggles either resolve themselves or the child becomes a part of their LGBTQ2S+ community. In fact, only 23 per cent of childhood gender incongruence (discomfort caused by a mismatch between one’s gender and sex) leads to transgenderism. Surgically transitioning as a transgender person is also associated with improved psychological well-being.

According to one literature review, “Studies show that there is less than 1% of regrets, and a little more than 1% of suicides among operated subjects.” With some of my friends, I have personally been a witness to how their process of transitioning has benefited their lives. As mentioned before, the brain is uniquely sensitive and responsive to sex in a way the rest of the body isn’t, and when it comes to sexual development, the body and brain tend to develop asynchronously and at differing paces. By the time a boy hits puberty, they will most likely develop adult male genitals, acquire a deeper voice, and start growing body hair. However, due to atypical biological events in their past, their brain will resemble that of a female rather than a male. But what does this really mean?

The American Journal of Psychiatry has published an erratum notice after conducting a statistical analysis that was prompted by letters questioning the methodology of “Reduction in Mental Health Treatment Utilization Among Transgender Individuals After Gender-Affirming Surgeries: A Total Population Study.” The erratum explains why the study’s conclusion “that the longitudinal association between gender-affirming surgery and lower use of mental health treatment lends support to the decision to provide gender-affirming surgeries to transgender individuals who seek them” is too strong.
- https://www.psychiatry.org/news-room/new...fits-of-ge

Nine months after the study’s original publication, the AJP stated, “the results [of the reanalysis] demonstrated no advantage of surgery in relation to subsequent mood or anxiety disorder-related health care visits or prescriptions or hospitalizations following suicide attempts”.
- https://segm.org/ajp_correction_2020

A pioneering study from 1995 found that a specific brain region associated with sexual behavior was larger in males than females. Upon investigating this brain region size in male-to-female trans individuals, researchers found that this specific brain region was consistent with the transitioned sex (female) of the individual rather than their assigned sex at birth (male). Another follow-up study from 2000 tracked transsexuality as a function of the number of brain cells present in sexually expressive brain regions. Usually, males have twice as many brain cells in these brain areas responsible for sexual dimorphite attributes as compared to females.

After controlling for hormone statuses, sexual orientation(s), and social context(s), the study determined that male-to-female trans individuals did not have the cell count of their birth sex, but the sex they insisted they were. Likewise, female-to-male trans people had cell counts representing their gender orientation rather than their biological sex. These studies spearheaded the modern, and still progressive understanding of sex-gender mismatch: the idea that sex differences in the genitals take hold before sex differences in the brain, and that the lack of synchronization between these two processes might lay the foundation for transgenderism.

Thanks for teeing-up my previous point.

One subnucleus of the human BNST, the central nucleus, is larger in males and contains twice as many somatostatin neurons relative to females. Most interestingly, transgender women (assigned male at birth) have a female-typical, smaller central nucleus with fewer somatostatin neurons, and vice versa (Zhou et al., 1995;Kruijver et al., 2000;Pol et al., 2006;Swaab, 2007). However, these studies cannot remove the confounding factor of elevated chronic psychosocial stressors experienced by trans individuals, which would influence BNST connectivity and neuroplasticity.
- https://www.researchgate.net/figure/BSTc...1_12475506

Furthermore, BNST is implicated in stress-related mood disorders, including anxiety and Post-Traumatic Stress Disorders in humans, and may be linked to sex differences found in mood disorders.
- https://www.researchgate.net/publication...terminalis

The bed nucleus of the stria terminalis is "larger in men than in women," but can be changed by "elevated chronic psychosocial stressors" that "would influence BNST... neuroplasticity," which "is implicated in stress-related mood disorders, including anxiety and Post-Traumatic Stress Disorders in humans."
IOW, trauma can cause neuroplasticity in this sexually dimorphic part of the brain. Which is exactly what I said could be a contributing factor.

Sometimes, transphobic rhetoric is bolstered by the claim that “switching genders is simply unnatural.” Even if something seems unlikely, not well-observed, or even downright impossible to us, the fact that it exists makes it, by definition, natural. The reality is that gender struggles are more common than people think, and it’s crucial that in an age of science, we as students commit ourselves to learning the facts of the situation and be open to new information with a compassionate mind."----- https://themedium.ca/the-brain-science-o...ansgender/

This is the naturalistic fallacy, that just because something is "natural" it's somehow good, acceptable, etc..
But since BNST volume is influenced by neuroplasticity caused by PTSD, the logical inference is that we should find better ways to treat PTSD, not some symptom much further down the causal chain.

But instead, you'd rather people make the symptoms of trauma a life-long identity.

Again, thank you so much for teeing-up my previous point.

[Magical Realist]

While we're digging up old skeletons on people:

“Michael Shermer is someone who has been accused of sexual harassment and sexual assault (rape) by multiple women,” she wrote. “Although the police did not bring formal charges against him, there have been many witnesses that have publicly corroborated the stories of the victims.”

In a follow-up interview with the Channels, Napoleon explained why she thought it was important to inform the campus of the allegations.

“When it’s multiple women coming forward with similar stories, I think that’s something that needs to be paid attention to,” Napoleon said. “If this was one woman saying this, I would be more skeptical and hesitant to share it with others. But because it’s multiple women, I think it’s something to pay attention to.”

https://www.thechannels.org/news/2018/03...legations/

---

But since BNST volume is influenced by neuroplasticity caused by PTSD,

I see. So now you're claiming transgender identity as indicated by brain structure is caused by PTSD? That every transgender is a victim of PTSD? What evidence is there for this at all? And why doesn't every kid that suffers from PTSD turn transgender?