The Rings of Power

[C C]

[...] Personally, I think women and minorities deserve to have wholly original stories, especially ones that actually highlight their uniqueness, rather than co-opting existing white or male stories in cookie cutter fashion. Don't you think they deserve to have stories that are truly their own?

To CW's credit, they did put out a TV series adaptation of Black Lightning some years ago, rather than -- say, giving The Flash a trans-ethnic conversion. (Marvel's Black Panther, too, though Wakanda is a faux African community.)

But otherwise, this lingering brand of racism/sexism/etc in the entertainment industry often obstructs doing that. The latter has the phobia that most new characters and story settings wholly grounded in _X_ diverse identity background can't succeed well financially. They need the [demeaning] help of standing on the shoulders of or displacing an established character and/or story tradition originally set in a white cisgender hetero male or whatever context.

Thus, why James Bond will eventually have to be a Black lesbian rather than simply introducing a new spy character that is a Black lesbian, or an Arab transwoman. And it's not like "real spies" haven't been a diverse lot to select from for decades (below). But still, an unfortunate "we'll give you a step-ladder" Black lesbian woman will have to ride the shoulders of formerly white-hetero dude James Bond, rather than be a unique new spy character that natively has a Black lesbian identity.

Alec Leamas: What the hell do you think spies are? Moral philosophers measuring everything they do against the word of God or Karl Marx? They're not. They're just a bunch of seedy squalid bastards like me, little men, drunkards, queers, henpecked husbands, civil servants playing "Cowboys and Indians" to brighten their rotten little lives. Do you think they sit like monks in a cell, balancing right against wrong? Yesterday I would have killed Mundt because I thought him evil and an enemy. But not today. Today he is evil and my friend.

[Magical Realist]

Personally, I think women and minorities deserve to have wholly original stories, especially ones that actually highlight their uniqueness, rather than co-opting existing white or male stories in cookie cutter fashion. Don't you think they deserve to have stories that are truly their own?

The problem with that is literature based on minority characters is so few and far between that we rarely see film adaptations based on those. That's the overall effect of living in a predominately white hetero society and culture. So having a minority member play a character in a film that doesn't alter the plot and meaning of the story seems ok to me. I can identify as strongly with a black or asian character as I can with white characters. In the Rings of Power Durin the dwarf's wife is black. It was hard not to notice at first. But after awhile you get used to it. There is so much else that is good in the series that such minor details become frivolous.

[Syne]

As for how good it is, seems the ratings would beg to differ.
When the "frivolous" is world-breaking, it definitely is your echoed values over faithfulness to Tolkien.

Why do minorities need their own literature to adapt? Can't they simply write original minority movies and shows? For that matter, can't they write their own books to adapt?
Acting like they can't would seem to be you implying that they are inferior... at least in that regard.

[Magical Realist]

Why do minorities need their own literature to adapt? Can't they simply write original minority movies and shows? For that matter, can't they write their own books to adapt?

Typical racist solution. Separate but equal. Why can't minorities have their own restaurants? Or schools? Or neighborhoods? As long as the majority never has to encounter them or think about them.

Acting like they can't would seem to be you implying that they are inferior... at least in that regard.

Who says they aren't? They're a minority. That's why not as many films are based on their experience.

[Syne]

Why do minorities need their own literature to adapt? Can't they simply write original minority movies and shows? For that matter, can't they write their own books to adapt?

Typical racist solution. Separate but equal. Why can't minorities have their own restaurants? Or schools? Or neighborhoods? As long as the majority never has to encounter them or think about them.

You're the only one who added the non-sequitur "separate." Why would people writing works unique to minorities have to imply being separate? Why is that your go-to assumption? Again, are they not capable of writing such works?

Unlike you, I assume they can write original works that highlight minority uniqueness. That wouldn't make them inherently "separate." Actually, it's this seeming need to co-opt white/male stories that makes them seem second-class. Like they're not worthy of having their own stories. So even if you don't think this kind of co-opting is "separate," it is objectively not equal. It says that only white/male stories are worth telling.

Acting like they can't would seem to be you implying that they are inferior... at least in that regard.

Who says they aren't? They're a minority. That's why not as many films are based on their experience.

But aren't the ones that are specifically written for/by minorities much more relevant and unique to their experiences?
Why do we need a parity in the number of minority vs non-minority works? Equity? Sorry, equity doesn't trump quality in any business.

[Magical Realist]

You're the only one who added the non-sequitur "separate." Why would people writing works unique to minorities have to imply being separate? Why is that your go-to assumption? Again, are they not capable of writing such works?

You were just whining that minorities should write their own books if they want to be included in film adaptations. As if there can be no mixing of the races in films adapted from white authors. Why? What so bad about black and white actors being in the same movies? And you're the only one claiming they aren't writing their own novels. So that is your assumption not mine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Af...an_writers

But aren't the ones that are specifically written for/by minorities much more relevant and unique to their experiences?
Why do we need a parity in the number of minority vs non-minority works? Equity? Sorry, equity doesn't trump quality in any business.

There are tons of novels and screenplays that are not race relevant. Case in point, the NBC reboot of Quantum Leap which has an asian actor playing the lead and a non-binary person playing the computer genius role. So what's the prob? Are you saying only white actors should be in movies or series that are not race relevant? And how would you enforce something like that?

[Syne]

You're the only one who added the non-sequitur "separate." Why would people writing works unique to minorities have to imply being separate? Why is that your go-to assumption? Again, are they not capable of writing such works?

You were just whining that minorities should write their own books if they want to be included in film adaptations. As if there can be no mixing of the races in films adapted from white authors. Why? What so bad about black and white actors being in the same movies? And you're the only one claiming they aren't writing their own novels. So that is your assumption not mine.

As usual, you're making up bullshit I didn't even imply, much less actually say. Nothing but straw men, since you don't seem capable of simply trying to refute the actual argument.
I never once said anything about not being "included." There is plenty of literature with minority characters, but some, like Huck Finn have been "cancelled" for not being the right kind of inclusion. Again, this idea that races should be "separate" is your own straw man. Never said minorities don't write books either, so you're just chock full of lies.

What I'm talking about is characters either specifically defined as distinctly "fair" within the world or already established as a particular race or gender in a significant body of works. Like James Bond being made into a black lesbian.

But I suppose you wouldn't mind black characters being played by white actors. We could remake Shaft, Blade, Beverly Hills Cop, etc. with white folks, right? Of course, not. People would lose their damn minds and scream about cultural appropriation. Seeing the double standard yet?

But aren't the ones that are specifically written for/by minorities much more relevant and unique to their experiences?
Why do we need a parity in the number of minority vs non-minority works? Equity? Sorry, equity doesn't trump quality in any business.

There are tons of novels and screenplays that are not race relevant. Case in point, the NBC reboot of Quantum Leap which has an asian actor playing the lead and a non-binary person playing the computer genius role. So what's the prob? Are you saying only white actors should be in movies or series that are not race relevant? And how would you enforce something like that?

And I've never once criticized roles like Quantum Leap being recast with different races/genders. Changing those is neither source material world-breaking nor altering a large body of work or cultural touchstone. Try again.

[Magical Realist]

Bottom line: Casting diversity in films and TV series makes more money, is more popular, and wins more awards. And that after all means it isn't going away anytime soon. So get used to it. It's capitalism at its finest.

"It’s been five years since the #OscarsSoWhite movement began calling attention to how white-dominated the award-winning films are, but Hollywood still has a long way to go in embracing diversity.


A new report adds fuel to that effort by showing that films with diverse characters and authentic stories actually make more money at the box office.

Researchers at UCLA’s Center for Scholars & Storytellers analyzed over 100 films released from 2016 to 2019. They tracked how much each film earned in the U.S. as well as its diversity score on Mediaversity, which takes into account not just who works on a movie (in terms of gender, race, sexuality, and disability status) but whether the story is authentic, culturally relevant, and inclusive. By this metric, movies like Coco, Black Panther, and Wonder Woman score high, whereas films like Joker and Shaft score low.

They found that films ranked below average for diversity take a financial hit at the box office, compared to films ranked above average. Even after accounting for critical acclaim, big-budget films lacking in diversity make about $27 million less on their opening weekend, with a potential loss of $130 million in total.

“Regardless of the critical acclaim of a film, money is still being left on the table if the film lacks authentically inclusive representation,” the report says.

This research came out of multidisciplinary “think tank” sessions at the Center for Scholars & Storytellers, which brought together researchers and industry professionals to explore important issues around entertainment media for young people. Along with the report, they also released a checklist to help creators tell more authentic, inclusive stories. For example, they warn against including diverse characters in stereotypical ways: the oversexualized Black woman, the criminal Latino, the passive Asian love interest."---
https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article...box_office

[Syne]

Again, who said movies centered around minority characters didn't do well? Coco, Black Panther, and Wonder Woman are all characters originally written to be those minorities. Those are the exact kinds of movies I'm talking about when I say original roles written for minority characters.

That's what we need more of. Not shoehorning minorities into white/male stories (or distinctly "fair" elves).

[Zinjanthropos]

Geez, The Beekeeper covered a lot of bases. From one man army hero white guy to dumb minority victim of minority bad guys along with questionably intelligent minority FBI agents to a female white POTUS to number one bad white guy getting greased. Like having three white people with more power/control/smarts than the bad guy minority characters surrounding them.

This movie is raking it in. Who’s watching it?