SyneAug 25, 2024 05:23 AM (This post was last modified: Aug 25, 2024 05:24 AM by Syne.)
(Aug 25, 2024 04:58 AM)Magical Realist Wrote:
Quote:It means you should have higher goals than just amassing wealth. But the two are not mutually exclusive.
Uh no. Jesus said amassing wealth for wealth's sakes was definitely wrong. No man can serve God AND money. That means they ARE mutually exclusive. "Capitalism" literally means "wealthism"--the worship of wealth.
Yeah, "for wealth's sake" alone. He never said being wealthy was wrong, in itself. You can make plenty of money without serving money. You can even make a lot of money in order to serve God.
Capitalism is simply voluntary commerce. No definition of "ism" includes worship. But we know how illiterate you can be.
Quote:Capitalism is simply voluntary commerce. No definition of "ism" includes worship. But we know how illiterate you can be.
Nope..the word says it all. Hedonism. Theism. Satanism. Materialism. And capitalism or wealthism. The pursuit and worship of the almighty dollar. The precise opposite of the sort of ascetism and sacrifice Jesus taught and lived. He was quite clear about it:
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God".
See? Just "someone who is rich." Not someone who is rich and tithes every Sunday. Not someone who is rich and gives to charities. Not someone who is rich and runs a business. Just someone who is rich. That certainly includes the bulk of hardcore money-grubbing capitalists. Can't serve two masters remember.
No, you're just further demonstrating your illiteracy. If you'd read your own post, you'd see at least one blaring example that proves "ism" doesn't mean worship. Otherwise, you need to explain how asceticism involves worship. Poor little mooncalf isn't even smart enough to avoid immediately disproving his own claim.
Jesus never taught that you should be poor. And I'd bet you have no idea what "a camel to go through the eye of a needle" refers to. Hint, it isn't anything remotely as impossible as it sounds. It's just the simple fact that those who need for nothing in this life have a harder time feeling any need for God. Simple reasoning.
And if you use wealth to serve God, you cannot be serving wealth. Again, having wealth and serving God are not mutually exclusive.
Too bad you have no understanding of most the crap you post.
confused2Aug 25, 2024 12:03 PM (This post was last modified: Aug 25, 2024 12:13 PM by confused2.)
One of the 'uses' of the art-form known as rhetoric is to attempt to turn what is reasonable and true into something that appears unreasonable and false .. I tend to avoid that type of 'rhetorical' discussion because I know no truth will emerge from it.
So.. looking at the eye of the needle..
Quote:The "Eye of the Needle" was indeed a narrow gateway into Jerusalem. Since camels were heavily loaded with goods and riders, they would need to be un-loaded in order to pass through. Therefore, the analogy is that a rich man would have to similarly unload his material possessions in order to enter heaven.
From The Guardian .. Google it for more.
A common saying among old folks is "You can't take it [your money] with you when you die." .. meaning you might as well spend your money before you die .. I'd guess old folks were saying the same thing back in Jesus's time. So the "eye of the needle" was semi-humorous in intent .. death will strip you of your possessions regardless .. but to enter the kingdom of heaven you have to do it intentionally.
If we phrase the question as "Can a good lawyer get a rich man into the kingdom of heaven?" .. I'd guess the answer is "Probably not.".
Quote:If you'd read your own post, you'd see at least one blaring example that proves "ism" doesn't mean worship.
OTOH I cited 4 clear examples of -ism referring to the belief in and worship of something. That trumps your one example.
Quote:And I'd bet you have no idea what "a camel to go through the eye of a needle" refers to. Hint, it isn't anything remotely as impossible as it sounds.
You should do some research about a topic before making stupid claims about it.
"The term "eye of a needle" is used as a metaphor for a very narrow opening. It occurs several times throughout the Talmud. The New Testament quotes Jesus as saying in Luke 18:25 that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" (Jesus and the rich young man). It also appears in the Qur'an 7:40, "Indeed, those who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them – the gates of Heaven will not be opened for them, nor will they enter Paradise until a camel enters into the eye of a needle. And thus do We recompense the criminals."
Judaism
The Babylonian Talmud applies the aphorism to unthinkable thoughts. To explain that dreams reveal the thoughts of a man's heart and are the product of reason rather than the absence of it, some rabbis say:
They do not show a man a palm tree of gold, nor an elephant going through the eye of a needle.
A midrash on the Song of Songs uses the phrase to speak of God's willingness and ability beyond comparison to accomplish the salvation of a sinner:
The Holy One said, open for me a door as big as a needle's eye and I will open for you a door through which may enter tents and camels.
Rav Sheishet of Nehardea applied the same aphorism to the reasoning for which the sages of Pumbedita were evidently famous: "Are you from Pumbedita, where they push an elephant through the eye of a needle?" (Baba Metzia, 38b).
Christianity
"The eye of a needle" is a portion of a quotation attributed to Jesus in the synoptic gospels:
"I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, 'Who then can be saved?' Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'
The saying was a response to a young rich man who had asked Jesus what he needed to do to inherit eternal life. Jesus replied that he should keep the commandments, which the man replied that he had done so. Jesus responded, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." The young man became sad and was unwilling to do that. Jesus then spoke that response, leaving his disciples astonished.
Cyril of Alexandria (fragment 219) claimed that "camel" was a Greek scribal typo where Biblical Greek: κάμηλος, romanized: kámēlos, lit. 'camel' was written in place of Biblical Greek: κάμιλος, romanized: kámilos, lit. 'rope' or 'cable'. More recently, George Lamsa, in his 1933 translation of the Bible into English from the Syriac, claimed the same.
Arthur Schopenhauer, in The World as Will and Representation, Volume 1, § 68, quoted Matthew 19:24: "It is easier for an anchor cable to go through an eye of a needle than for a rich person to come to God's kingdom."
In modern times, the scripture has been used as a counterargument to the prosperity gospel, the belief that accruing wealth is a virtue favored by God.
Gate
The "Eye of the Needle" has been claimed to be a gate in Jerusalem, which opened after the main gate was closed at night. A camel could not pass through the smaller gate unless it was stooped and had its baggage removed. The story has been put forth since at least the 11th century and possibly as far back as the 9th century. However, there is no widely accepted evidence for the existence of such a gate."---- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_a_needle
C CAug 25, 2024 09:17 PM (This post was last modified: Aug 25, 2024 10:11 PM by C C.)
Since banana republics were heavily Catholic in a very traditional way, the idea of it being difficult for rich people to get into heaven served the purpose of maintaining a poor working class (i.e., not improving your station in this life ensures your elevation in the afterlife). And thereby helping to thwart the emergence of a true middle class. In theory, there was only the hierarchy of gentry and the impoverished proles -- though closer examination would reveal a variety of special distinctions, though still a hollowed-out midsection. (Crabs in a bucket -- take pride in being poor)
banana republic: Typically, a banana republic has a society of extremely stratified social classes, usually a large impoverished working class and a ruling class plutocracy, composed of the business, political, and military elites. The ruling class controls the primary sector of the economy by way of exploitation of labour. Therefore, the term banana republic is a pejorative descriptor for a servile oligarchy that abets and supports, for kickbacks, the exploitation of large-scale plantation agriculture, especially banana cultivation.
confused2Aug 25, 2024 11:35 PM (This post was last modified: Aug 26, 2024 01:06 AM by confused2.
Edit Reason: Edited for clarity
)
CC has it (as usual) .. Christianity is exactly the kind of fairy tale you need to keep the proles in their place. Despite what Syne seems to think - everyone of a particular culture knows Jesus didn't say "A rising tide floats all boats" - that came much later (I can't be bothered to find out when). Like Goldilocks and the four bears - everyone of a particular culture knows there were only three . Some economist came up with the idea that individual wealth is 'good' and a rising tide floats all boats - it may even be true - but it sure as hell ain't biblical.
Edit
"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" .. kind of difficult to imagine how to make the point any clearer ..
SyneAug 26, 2024 05:13 AM (This post was last modified: Aug 26, 2024 05:40 AM by Syne.)
(Aug 25, 2024 08:40 PM)Magical Realist Wrote:
Quote:If you'd read your own post, you'd see at least one blaring example that proves "ism" doesn't mean worship.
OTOH I cited 4 clear examples of -ism referring to the belief in and worship of something. That trumps your one example.
No, you didn't. If you were more literate, you'd be posting definition sources instead of talking out of your ass.
"Ism" can refer to a doctrine or belief, but no definition includes "worship." You do know that belief doesn't necessitate worship, right? After all, you're belief in UFOs or ghosts doesn't entail worship of them. Or does it? @_@
Quote:
Quote:And I'd bet you have no idea what "a camel to go through the eye of a needle" refers to. Hint, it isn't anything remotely as impossible as it sounds.
You should do some research about a topic before making stupid claims about it.
I appreciate the copious citation from wiki, but that doesn't quite cover all the bases. For one, they fail to describe actual needles from that time period: [Image: preview]
Ah, therein lies the root of the problem. The Greek word used for camel is kameolon which means just that, camel, nothing else. Yet, Jesus did not speak this in Greek but in Aramaic. The Aramaic word for camel is gamla which has a double meaning, both rope and camel. The course hair of the camel was often used to fashion a rope by binding these hairs together, hence the word gamla took on this double meaning.
Needles in ancient times were not these little metal pin type needles like we purchase at Walmart today, these needles were large and made of oak and you could thread a cord through it. They were often threaded with a cord and hung over the necks of the camels. When the cord was passed through the eye of the needle some of its fibers would come off. Hence a rich man must, learn to share some of his luxuries.
I have also read in Aramaic literature an idiomatic expression which seems to have been in common use during Jesus’s day. When an individual forms an easy and quick friendship he will say that when they met it was like a needle and thread, but if that relationship did not have an easy start and they had difficulty understanding each other they would say that their relationship was like a rope passing through a needle. My feeling is that this is the idiom that Jesus is making a reference to.
- https://www.chaimbentorah.com/2014/11/he...edles-eye/
If Jesus was referencing the Talmud, he would have said "elephant going through the eye of a needle," which is clearly impossible, even if it were a small gate, and has no potential to be confused with rope.
Jesus could have been alluding to a commonly understood expression from Oral Tradition later the Talmud where it states that a poor man can easily know God better than a rich man or an atira because a poor man must daily depend upon God for his bread where a rich man can acquire his bread through his abundance.
Jesus is simply stating a truth that is common to us all. When we run out of options and resources it is much easier to depend upon God to seek and enter a knowledge of God (kingdom of God) than it is when we have plenty of resources and options at our disposal.
Which is basically what I said here: "those who need for nothing in this life have a harder time feeling any need for God"
(Aug 25, 2024 11:35 PM)confused2 Wrote: CC has it (as usual) .. Christianity is exactly the kind of fairy tale you need to keep the proles in their place. Despite what Syne seems to think - everyone of a particular culture knows Jesus didn't say "A rising tide floats all boats" - that came much later (I can't be bothered to find out when). Like Goldilocks and the four bears - everyone of a particular culture knows there were only three . Some economist came up with the idea that individual wealth is 'good' and a rising tide floats all boats - it may even be true - but it sure as hell ain't biblical.
Edit
"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" .. kind of difficult to imagine how to make the point any clearer ..
Welfare and socialist promises seem to work just as well for maintaining an underclass. As MR has cited, 70% return to welfare.
Jesus certainly didn't condemn King Solomon or Joseph (Old Testament) for their wealth.
King Solomon was greater in riches and wisdom than all the other kings of the earth.
- 1 Kings 10:23
The Lord was with Joseph so that he prospered, and he lived in the house of his Egyptian master. When his master saw that the Lord was with him and that the Lord gave him success in everything he did, Joseph found favor in his eyes and became his attendant. Potiphar put him in charge of his household, and he entrusted to his care everything he owned. From the time he put him in charge of his household and of all that he owned, the Lord blessed the household of the Egyptian because of Joseph. The blessing of the Lord was on everything Potiphar had, both in the house and in the field. So Potiphar left everything he had in Joseph’s care; with Joseph in charge, he did not concern himself with anything except the food he ate.
- Genesis 39:2-6
One person gives freely, yet gains even more; another withholds unduly, but comes to poverty.
A generous person will prosper; whoever refreshes others will be refreshed.
- Proverbs 11:24-25
The Bible actually teaches that good people will prosper. But only by giving freely, not by socialist government mandate.
Even Jesus taught that generosity would be rewarded:
Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
- Luke 6:38
Doesn't say anything about "making the rich pay their fair share" or Caesar redistributing the wealth.