Conservatives vs "Liberals"

[Syne]

https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/8-IXVhRcfuI

[Magical Realist]

Liberals say if you are against abortion, then don't have one. Conservatives say if you are against abortion, then outlaw it for everybody.

[Syne]

Liberals say if I want to kill my baby everyone should let me get away with murder, not taking any responsibility for my own actions that led to a baby. Conservatives say murder is always wrong, and you should take responsibility for all your own actions.

[confused2]

As (I'm guessing) a slightly rich Southern lady put it .. for anyone else we have pitbulls and pew-pew.

[Magical Realist]

Liberals say if I want to kill my baby everyone should let me get away with murder, not taking any responsibility for my own actions that led to a baby. Conservatives say murder is always wrong, and you should take responsibility for all your own actions.

Murder has always been wrong and outlawed. Abortion hasn't. So it can't be murder. Certainly not as most Americans define it (see below). And if you really thought it was you'd be out in front of an abortion clinic now with your redneck cronies trying to prevent pregnant women from entering it.

"A new Gallup survey has found American support of legal abortion access has remained strong, and in some cases increased, since the US supreme court ruled to overturn the landmark Roe v Wade decision that previously protected federal abortion rights.

The results come even as tens of millions of American women have lost easy access to abortion across large swathes of America over the past 12 months.

The study found a record-high 69% of Americans said abortion should generally be legal in the first three months of pregnancy. The prior high of 67% was recorded last May after the supreme court’s draft was leaked."---
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023...ted-states

[Syne]

The only thing that makes intentionally killing another human not murder is that it's defined as legal, like self-defense, serving in the military, etc.. Hence, when abortion laws change, and it becomes illegal, it is definitionally murder.

And if who you can murder is just a matter of opinion polls, lynchings would have gone on a lot longer. But sometimes the law has to step in a protect the most vulnerable, with or without broad public support.

But why do you have such an interest in killing babies? You just hate the young?

[Magical Realist]

Hence, when abortion laws change, and it becomes illegal, it is definitionally murder.

Which means it isn't now nor has it ever been defined as murder. And that's because the common sense of the vast majority of the people does not view a fetus as a person. Persons are conscious and independently alive human beings. A fetus not so much.

[Syne]

In US law, "murder is the unlawful killing of a human being," not a "person." Even the entire history of common law says "human," not "person." This "independent, conscious person" is a relatively new and ambiguous invention of the left. Has nothing to do with the law.

Common sense of the vast majority of people used to say that blacks were inferior to whites. So if we played by your reasoning, slavery would still exist today, because at the time, it had never been defined as illegal. Vulnerable populations get increasingly equal rights as civilizations mature. It's a wonder that so many people are so dead set against innocent babies.

[Magical Realist]

So if we played by your reasoning, slavery would still exist today,

No it wouldn't. It would be exactly as it happened, with a progressively more enlightened America deciding slavery was immoral and abolishing it. Just like they have decided every woman deserves the right to abort. You can't go back to the 50's no matter how much you want to.

Vulnerable populations get increasingly equal rights as civilizations mature.

Just like women won the equal right to have control over their own bodies. It happened in the 70's and will stay like that forever. Not even the Supreme Court can overrule a permanently enlightened nation.

43% of GOP voters say abortion should be legal in most cases: Poll
https://www.newsnationnow.com/politics/a...tion-poll/

[Syne]

Abolition (the immediate release of slaves into America... as opposed to a gradual resettlement in Africa) was considered an extremist view by most Northerners, and a non-starter for Southerners. Most Republican politicians (the only anti-slavery politicians) only sought to limit the spread of slavery, not stop it altogether. It wasn't until almost three years into the Civil War that Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation, ordering the freeing of all slaves. Even so, it didn't even apply to all the states:

The proclamation applied only to enslaved people in states that were in rebellion in 1863, namely South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Texas, Arkansas, and North Carolina. It exempted Tennessee and portions of Virginia and Louisiana that were occupied by the Union and left slavery untouched in the border states of Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, and Missouri.
- https://eji.org/news/history-racial-inju...clamation/

So there is no guarantee that short of being amid the Civil War that slavery would have ended, based solely on public opinion.

No one but the Supreme Court decided women deserved the right to kill babies. That differs from slavery, where elected representatives did eventually pass the Thirteenth Amendment. Women didn't win anything. Seven out of nine judges legislated from the bench, in violation of the separation of powers.

And another human life is never a part of a woman's "own body." If it were, conjoined twins would have the right to kill each other.

52% of that 43% trust the Republican party on the issue of abortion. So they say one thing but trust others to do what's best. Consider most Western countries have always have stricter abortion laws than the US, it's pretty clear that Roe went too far compared to the vast consensus in Western law.