Why Strive? Nick Cave’s letter about ChatGBT

[Secular Sanity]

https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/iGJcF4bLKd4

[C C]

[...] GPT is fast tracking the commodification of the human spirit by mechanizing the imagination. It renders our participation in the act of creation as valueless and unnecessary. That songwriter you were talking to -- Leon, who is using chat GPT to write his lyrics because it is faster and easier -- is participating in the erosion of the world's soul, and the spirit of humanity itself. And to put it politely, should desist if he wants to continue calling himself a songwriter.

Chat GPT's intent is to eliminate the process of creation and its attendant challenges. Viewing it as nothing more than a time-wasting inconvenience that stands in the way of the commodity itself. Why strive, it contends, why bother with the artistic process and its accompanying trials, why shouldn't we make it faster and easier?

When the God of the Bible looked down upon what He had created, He did so with a sense of accomplishment; and saw that it was good. It was good because it required something of His own self, and His struggle imbued creation with a moral imperative. In short, love.

Charlie, even though the creative act requires considerable effort in the end, you will be contributing to the vast network of love that supports human existence. There are all sorts of temptations in this world that will eat away at your creative spirit, but none more fiendish than that boundless machine of artistic demoralization chatGPT. As humans we so often feel helpless in our own smallness, yet still we find the resilience to do and make beautiful things, and this is where the meaning of life resides. [...]

A crude analogy might be made with "handcrafted slash homemade" versus factory manufactured. Ironically, there's a commercial mythos of "intangible value" attached to the former to secure it a competitive spot on the market for attracting buyers. Which is not to say such is not warranted -- a guitar made by an individual, master luthier may very well be better than one made by a high-standard company like Martin. (Though both would be oodles superior to a cheapjack one slapped together on a 3rd-world assembly line.)

AI will eventually replace hack songwriting derived entirely from the familiar. But due to its lack of a life, it can't compete with man-made lyrics derived from unique personal experiences. The problem with the latter refuge, however, is that it's limited territory for most people. (In a related context, history is full of authors who wrote fabulous first books of fiction, but nothing equivalent afterward because they exhausted their own autobiographical resource.)

And to a minor or lesser extent, AI will encroach upon those who can assimilate raw events they observe happening to others, and overhearing personal stories that others relate, and bumbling into new ideas -- and assemble those miscellaneous affairs into an imaginative work. They will maintain an edge over AI because it will be restricted to contriving original narratives from what's stored on the internet -- lacking, again, access to that wider degree of chance input directly available in the world via the human having a body roaming around in it and subjectively processing what is encountered.

But similar to how Auto-Tune undermined or destroyed the authenticity of current-day singers (along with other voice modification effects), the compromised and ersatz nature of future songwriting or writing in general will probably be most realized by the hybrid approach (both contributing). Of the human feeding the AI their desired parameters and some specifics, and then the machine doing the heavy lifting. Which could be what's referred to above (not clear whether ChatGPT is wholly generating an _X_ from scratch according to its own choices, or it's constrained by what Leon wants/suggests and the basics he feeds in).

[stryder]

I've faced this problem for a number of years and now the worlds catching up.

I could come up with an idea, something that could well be art... however if a system (AGI) just popped that idea into existance by cheating to reach an outcome before I've evn started(A bit like the Janken Bot)

I'd feel that if I pressed on regardless that I would actually be recreating something that already existed, even though technically I would be plagurising my own work (at least it would of been if the bot hadn't snatched it from me)

[Secular Sanity]

A crude analogy might be made with "handcrafted slash homemade" versus factory manufactured. Ironically, there's a commercial mythos of "intangible value" attached to the former to secure it a competitive spot on the market for attracting buyers. Which is not to say such is not warranted -- a guitar made by an individual, master luthier may very well be better than one made by a high-standard company like Martin. (Though both would be oodles superior to a cheapjack one slapped together on a 3rd-world assembly line.)

AI will eventually replace hack songwriting derived entirely from the familiar. But due to its lack of a life, it can't compete with man-made lyrics derived from unique personal experiences. The problem with the latter refuge, however, is that it's limited territory for most people. (In a related context, history is full of authors who wrote fabulous first books of fiction, but nothing equivalent afterward because they exhausted their own autobiographical resource.)

And to a minor or lesser extent, AI will encroach upon those who can assimilate raw events they observe happening to others, and overhearing personal stories that others relate, and bumbling into new ideas -- and assemble those miscellaneous affairs into an imaginative work. They will maintain an edge over AI because it will be restricted to contriving original narratives from what's stored on the internet -- lacking, again, access to that wider degree of chance input directly available in the world via the human having a body roaming around in it and subjectively processing what is encountered. 

But similar to how Auto-Tune undermined or destroyed the authenticity of current-day singers (along with other voice modification effects), the compromised and ersatz nature of future songwriting or writing in general will probably be most realized by the hybrid approach (both contributing). Of the human feeding the AI their desired parameters and some specifics, and then the machine doing the heavy lifting. Which could be what's referred to above (not clear whether ChatGPT is wholly generating an _X_ from scratch according to its own choices, or it's constrained by what Leon wants/suggests and the basics he feeds in).

The concern about AI reaching a point where it can completely take over creative tasks is a valid one, and it raises questions about motivation and the role of humans in the creative process. Here are some considerations:

Loss of Agency: If AI were to entirely take over creative tasks, individuals might feel a loss of agency and personal connection to their work. The sense of accomplishment derived from creating something uniquely personal could diminish.

Intrinsic Motivation: For many people, the motivation to create comes from within – a desire for self-expression, exploration, or the satisfaction of overcoming creative challenges. If AI takes over, individuals might lose this intrinsic motivation, potentially impacting their overall sense of purpose and fulfillment.

Creative Identity: Human creators often find a sense of identity and purpose in their creative pursuits. If AI generates content on their behalf, creators might struggle with questions of authenticity and the true expression of their creative selves.

Emotional Connection: Human emotions, experiences, and stories are complex and deeply rooted. AI, while capable of mimicking certain aspects, may lack the genuine emotional connection that human creators bring to their work.

Adaptation: On the flip side, humans have a remarkable ability to adapt. If AI takes on certain creative tasks, individuals might find new ways to contribute, whether it's in refining AI-generated content, exploring novel creative mediums, or focusing on aspects that AI cannot replicate.

It's essential to consider the balance between AI assistance and human involvement in the creative process. Many envision a future where AI acts as a powerful tool, enhancing human creativity rather than replacing it entirely. Striking the right balance will be crucial to maintaining motivation, purpose, and the unique qualities that humans bring to the creative sphere.

And...I hope you don't mind, but just for shits and giggles, I asked about the meaning of your last poem. How did he fare?

This poem appears to be a metaphorical depiction of emotional or psychological struggle, using the imagery of a shipwreck and the subsequent experiences of being stranded on an unfamiliar island. The speaker describes the challenges and hardships they face, such as creaking timbers, foreboding, heartache, and the presence of biting flies and greedy gulls. The island becomes a symbol of isolation, loss, and mistakes, and the speaker reflects on their internal struggles and emotional pain.

The repeated phrase "I'm still wrecked upon this ache" suggests a persistent and enduring emotional turmoil. The poem explores themes of despair, self-revilement, and the relentless toll of emotional hardship. Despite the hardships, the speaker seems to continue searching for something, even if it's described as "strange fruit," and acknowledges that the perilous journey may help dull the pain.

Overall, the poem uses nautical and island imagery to convey the complex and enduring nature of emotional suffering, with a sense of being adrift and unable to escape from the ache within.

---

I've faced this problem for a number of years and now the worlds catching up.

I could come up with an idea, something that could well be art... however if a system (AGI) just popped that idea into existance by cheating to reach an outcome before I've evn started(A bit like the Janken Bot)

I'd feel that if I pressed on regardless that I would actually be recreating something that already existed, even though technically I would be plagurising my own work (at least it would of been if the bot hadn't snatched it from me)

Too funny! I’ve been losing almost every time at rock/paper/scissors to my youngest son. What’s the secret? Do you know?  

Top of Form

[Magical Realist]

Nick Cave in his younger years:

[Image: jzF8bvH.jpg]

[C C]

The concern about AI reaching a point where it can completely take over creative tasks is a valid one, and it raises questions about motivation and the role of humans in the creative process. Here are some considerations:

Loss of Agency: If AI were to entirely take over creative tasks, individuals might feel a loss of agency and personal connection to their work. The sense of accomplishment derived from creating something uniquely personal could diminish.

Intrinsic Motivation: For many people, the motivation to create comes from within – a desire for self-expression, exploration, or the satisfaction of overcoming creative challenges. If AI takes over, individuals might lose this intrinsic motivation, potentially impacting their overall sense of purpose and fulfillment.

Creative Identity: Human creators often find a sense of identity and purpose in their creative pursuits. If AI generates content on their behalf, creators might struggle with questions of authenticity and the true expression of their creative selves.

Emotional Connection: Human emotions, experiences, and stories are complex and deeply rooted. AI, while capable of mimicking certain aspects, may lack the genuine emotional connection that human creators bring to their work.

Adaptation: On the flip side, humans have a remarkable ability to adapt. If AI takes on certain creative tasks, individuals might find new ways to contribute, whether it's in refining AI-generated content, exploring novel creative mediums, or focusing on aspects that AI cannot replicate.

It's essential to consider the balance between AI assistance and human involvement in the creative process. Many envision a future where AI acts as a powerful tool, enhancing human creativity rather than replacing it entirely. Striking the right balance will be crucial to maintaining motivation, purpose, and the unique qualities that humans bring to the creative sphere.

Yah, no doubt an attempt will be made to coddle human contributions as still being important. Akin to the comforting old fairy tales of geocentrism and being children of the divine, with an immortal destiny.

In a broader picture, the obsolescence of human-in-origin Arts and Lit would just be another subgroup to add to the "useless class". That item of Harari's that even Lilly was channeling a few weeks ago: https://www.scivillage.com/thread-15155-...l#pid61517

An amalgamation of the politically progressive corporate (wealthy) elite and their allies -- that guiding intellectual "priesthood" side of the two cultures -- would provide a universal basic income for the useless or otiose class. In exchange for the latter's loyalty of voting for the Lord Protectors' choice of candidates. Taxing the middle class and what little is left of the proles to fund such an entitlement or humanitarian aid.

I get the label of "Lord Protectors" from Leigh Brackett's "The Book of Skaith" series, where she described a similar situation of an opportunistic ruling class employing altruism to justify its despotism and parasitism. But instead of exploiting a "useless class" of celibate hikkomori-like people supplied with video games and pornography addictions to keep them content, the Lords in the Skaith saga protected and funded a class of hippie-like, homeless wanderers.

I suspect Brackett got the idea from some of Ayn Rand's rhetoric about the New Left, but there's no smoking gun for that. Most of the fans of the books also seem oblivious to the covert political allegory that she had infused the space-opera fantasy with.

The above is not meant to disparage the plight of the future "otiose class", but just to point out how they will be exploited in their own way by the Lord Protectors as much as the financially parasitized classes.

And...I hope you don't mind, but just for shits and giggles, I asked about the meaning of your last poem. How did he fare?

This poem appears to be a metaphorical depiction of emotional or psychological struggle, using the imagery of a shipwreck and the subsequent experiences of being stranded on an unfamiliar island. The speaker describes the challenges and hardships they face, such as creaking timbers, foreboding, heartache, and the presence of biting flies and greedy gulls. The island becomes a symbol of isolation, loss, and mistakes, and the speaker reflects on their internal struggles and emotional pain.

The repeated phrase "I'm still wrecked upon this ache" suggests a persistent and enduring emotional turmoil. The poem explores themes of despair, self-revilement, and the relentless toll of emotional hardship. Despite the hardships, the speaker seems to continue searching for something, even if it's described as "strange fruit," and acknowledges that the perilous journey may help dull the pain.

Overall, the poem uses nautical and island imagery to convey the complex and enduring nature of emotional suffering, with a sense of being adrift and unable to escape from the ache within.

Not bad, although everything about "Shipwrecked" is pretty self-evident to begin with. There are no obscure references to consult when it comes to "nautical and island imagery" or metaphors. It neglected criticism of the mundane, formulaic nature of "Shipwrecked" in a contemporary era where free verse is God. And no sarcastic comment like: "It has an anachronistic feel to it, as if it could be set to some old-timey music or country-blues sung by Memphis Minnie or the Carter Family in the early 20th-century."

[Secular Sanity]

You might enjoy reading through his site, if you haven’t already, MR.

https://www.theredhandfiles.com/about/

You’re right though, CC. AI still lacks subjectivity and personal experiences, but it might simulate subjective responses convincingly based on learned patterns and contextual understanding. At this point, how could we tell the difference between AI and human creativity? Maybe Stryder’s onto something…speed. Like Nick Cave said, "In the story of the creation, God makes the world, and everything in it, in six days."

Oh, and BTW, I loved the poem and especially the strange fruit bit.