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Article  Hamas, the Jews, and the Illiberal Left

#1
C C Offline
The schism on the left is not just about the Middle East
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10/...orism.html

EXCERPT: ... Liberals believe political rights are universal. Basic principles like democracy, free speech, and human rights apply equally to all people, without regard to the content of their political values. (This of course very much includes Palestinians, who deserve the same rights as Jews or any other people, and whose humanity is habitually ignored by Israeli conservatives and their American allies.) A liberal would abhor the use of political violence or repression, however evil the targets.

A variety of left-wing alternatives respond that liberalism ignores power differentials by class, race, or gender [Antonio Gramsci intellectual legacy]. The illiberal left believes treating everybody equally, when the power is so unequal, merely serves to maintain existing structures of power. It follows from their critique that the legitimacy of a tactic can only be assessed with reference to whether it is being used by the oppressor or the oppressed. Is it okay for, say, a mob of protesters to shout down a lecture? Liberals would say no. Illiberal leftists would need to know who was the speaker and who was the mob before they could answer.

“Decolonization” is one of those strands of illiberal leftism. It has a model of the world in which conflicts are analyzed as a struggle pitting settler-colonist-Europeans, who are evil, against native/indigenous/BIPOC people. Like other illiberal leftist theories, the decolonization model does not leave room to judge the morality of any methods.

The liberal response to these alternative ideas is not to deny that power differentials exist, but that discarding liberalism in the name of social justice invites repression. To permit any political faction to use tactics they would never accept if used against them is to grant them a license for tyranny that will never be revoked.

To many progressives, this whole debate has seemed abstract, trivial, and counterproductive. Even progressives who are not supporters of the illiberal left have been reluctant to criticize it. They see the left’s foibles as a distraction from the larger fight with the radical right — a fight that, to be sure, I also see (and have always seen) as the paramount struggle in American politics.

It is easy to understand why a progressive could arrive at this conclusion in good faith. The illiberal left has little ability to use state power — it is a miniscule faction within the Democratic Party, and the United States government is bound by robust First Amendment protections. (For this reason, state censorship is still mostly carried out by the Republican Party, whose illiberal wing is vastly larger). The stakes of this ideology have therefore been confined to the private sphere. Left-wing illiberalism can get dissenters fired from a job, but not sent to a Gulag.

One observation I’ve shared with many analysts well to my left is that the debate over this illiberalism and the social norms it has spawned — demands for deference in the name of allyship, describing opposing ideas as a form of harm, and so on — has tracked an older debate within the left over communism. Communism provided real-world evidence of how an ideology that denies political rights to anybody deemed to be the oppressor laid the theoretical groundwork for repression and murder.

There have been conscious echoes of this old divide in the current dispute over Hamas. The left-wing historian Gabriel Winant has a column in Dissent urging progressives not to mourn dead Israeli civilians because that sentiment will be used to advance the Zionist project. Winant sounds eerily like an old communist fellow traveler explaining that the murders of the kulaks or the Hungarian nationalists are the necessary price of defending the revolution... (MORE - missing detials)
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#2
confused2 Offline
The fate of the American Indian is interesting. Why don't we see a United States of (American) Indians? Maybe a few areas set aside for European immigrants.
If the Indians fought they lost their land. If the Indians didn't fight they lost their land. If Indians had actually owned buffalos (for food) the settlers would have bought them and killed them anyway.

Does the same fate await the people who call themselves Palestinians by virtue of having previously lived in the region known historically as Palestine?
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#3
C C Offline
(Oct 29, 2023 11:56 PM)confused2 Wrote: The fate of the American Indian is interesting. Why don't we see a United States of (American) Indians? Maybe a few areas set aside for European immigrants.
If the Indians fought they lost their land. If the Indians didn't fight they lost their land. If Indians had actually owned buffalos (for food) the settlers would have bought them and killed them anyway.

Does the same fate await the people who call themselves Palestinians by virtue of having previously lived in the region known historically as Palestine?

Like the Jews themselves and Romani people, both Native Americans[1] and Palestinians[2] also have scatterings around the world numbering in the millions. At least for the latter.[3]

Of course, China has its own approach for dealing with its resident "Muslim problem". Doing just about everything Nazis did to Jews other than mass extermination via gassing: Uyghur genocide

But curiously, the Middle East cares far less about what Han Chinese do to Uyghurs than what Israeli Jews do to Palestinians. In fact, even going out of their way to assist the Chinese government in its endeavors...

Human rights abuses: Uyghurs in the United Arab Emirates, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia have been detained and deported back to China, sometimes separating families. CNN reported in June 2021 that "rights activists fear that even as Western nations take China to task over its treatment of Uyghurs, countries in the Middle East and beyond will increasingly be willing to acquiesce to its crackdown on members of the ethnic group at home and abroad." According to the Associated Press, "Dubai also has a history as a place where Uyghurs are interrogated and deported back to China."

If Israeli responses to Palestinians didn't provide the Arab world with opportunities to publicly indulge in its antisemitism, apparently there would be little or no love for Palestinians. And (in terms of garnering attention/sympathy) the Uyghurs have the great misfortune of not living beside any significant quantity of Jews at all, much less being persecuted by them.

- - - footnotes - - -

[1] Native American Diaspora: American Indians were sent all over the world, including Bermuda, Bahamas, the Caribbean, Europe and Northwest Africa. The Native Americans were not just pushed westward across North America, they were exiled to the West Indies, and even the Southwest Pacific (New Guinea).


[2] Israel actively pushing Palestinian emigration from Gaza (2019)
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-act...cial-says/

EXCERPTS: Israel is actively promoting the emigration of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip, and is working to find other countries who may be willing to absorb them, a senior Israeli official said Monday.

[...] According to the official, European and Middle Eastern countries had been approached by Israel to accept Gazans who want to leave the Strip, but none had agreed to absorb them.

[...] However, an “independent emigration” continues by those Gazans who manage to find host countries on their own, the official said.

[...] The Hamas terror group — which took over Gaza by force in 2007, leading Israel and Egypt to impose a blockade — has imposed measures to stem the tide of emigration, according to a report by the Haaretz daily in May.

- - - - - - - - - -

[3] Palestinian diaspora
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_diaspora

It is estimated that more than 6 million Palestinians live in a global diaspora. The countries outside the Palestinian territories with significant Palestinian populations are:

Jordan 3,240,000

Israel 1,650,000

Syria 630,000

Chile 500,000 (largest Palestinian community outside the Middle East).

Lebanon 402,582

Saudi Arabia 280,245

Egypt 270,245

United States 255,000 (the largest concentrations in Chicago, Detroit & Los Angeles).

Honduras 250,000

Guatemala est. 200,000

Mexico 120,000

Qatar 100,000

Germany 80,000

Kuwait 80,000

El Salvador 70,000

Brazil 59,000

Iraq 57,000

Yemen 55,000

Canada 50,975

Australia 45,000

Libya 44,000

Puerto Rico est. 30,000

Greece est. 30,000

United Kingdom 20,000

Peru 19,000

Denmark 15,000

Colombia 12,000

Japan est. 10,000

Paraguay 10,000

Netherlands 9,000

Sweden 7,000

Algeria 4,030

Austria 4,010

Norway 3,825
_
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#4
confused2 Offline
That was a better response than I could have hoped for - thank you.

I think the Israeli strategy is fairly obvious.

In passing I'd like to point out that classing any criticism of Israel as 'anti-semitic' is just shit stirring. Nobody alive today followed Moses out of Egypt so enough with the Biblical tripe. Modern Israel is a self-declared independent state with all the freedoms and obligations that go with that status, nothing more and nothing less.

So.. the Palestinians have their backs to the sea with no ships expected.
The Israelis seem to be trying to sort the sheep from the goats by sending the sheep south while leaving the goats behind in the north. Kill the goats and destroy all ammunition dumps then send the sheep back up north.

Edit.. the next line was left over from a draft .. I think it still has a place..
If it doesn't work the first time then change ends and repeat.
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#5
C C Offline
(Oct 30, 2023 01:51 PM)confused2 Wrote: [...] In passing I'd like to point out that classing any criticism of Israel as 'anti-semitic' is just shit stirring. Nobody alive today followed Moses out of Egypt so enough with the Biblical tripe. Modern Israel is a self-declared independent state with all the freedoms and obligations that go with that status, nothing more and nothing less. [...]

Well, it enters the category [and controversy] of the New Antisemtism when, like, how the Labour Party got into trouble with the Jewish community a few years ago. Or when white activists and politicians in the US engage in similar criticism of Israel, Zionism, or whatever.

Whereas, again, "antisemitism in the Arab world" is a different species with a different history slash set of influences. Although there can be a mix with the other. (Egyptian rhetoric, for example, might be more the "new". But in contrast Iran propaganda might exhibit the other, coarser variety and its partial Nazi heritage).

Ironically, if proponents of New Antisemitism use it to silence criticism of Israeli policies (etc), it could be conflated with or seem like the very illiberalism that the OP references (even when not grounded in the far-left).

Traditional or classical liberalism included the advocation of free-speech for "everybody"[1] (sans things like falsely crying "fire" in a crowded auditorium), but illiberalism is against that due to its systemic oppression fixations/conspiracies ultimately descended from Gramsci's cultural hegemony ideology. One might theorize that New Antisemitism was crafted to take advantage of the latter, but that might only sound sane if its origin could be traced to a clique of Jewish intellectuals on the left.

[FOOTNOTE: [1] Unintentionally summed up in the Evelyn Beatrice Hall quote that was inspired by a parable of Voltaire's: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."]

NEW ANTISEMITISM: Proponents of the concept generally posit that in the late 20th and early 21st centuries much of what is purported to be criticism of Israel is in fact tantamount to demonization, and that together with an alleged international resurgence of antisemitic attacks on Jews, desecration of Jewish symbols and Judaism, Holocaust denial, and an increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs in public discourse and online hate speech, such demonization represents an evolution in the appearance of antisemitic beliefs. The proponents argue that anti-Zionism and demonization of Israel, or double standards applied to its conduct (some proponents also include anti-Americanism, anti-globalization, and Third-Worldism) may be linked to antisemitism, or constitute disguised antisemitism, particularly when emanating simultaneously from the far-left, Islamism, and the far-right.

Critics of the concept argue that it is used in practice to silence political debate and freedom of speech regarding the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict and that it trivializes the meaning of antisemitism, by conflating political anti-Zionism and criticism of the Israeli government with racism, condoning violence against Jews, or the Holocaust. Further critical arguments include the inclusion of race within legitimate criticism of Israel to be too narrow.

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#6
confused2 Offline
Quote:“For you [Israel] are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession” (Deuteronomy 7:6).
Apparently written around 2,700 years ago though (probably) a reference to much earlier events.
'The West' is steeped in Bible culture Some take it as literal truth, the rest, like myself, are merely aware that it is there.
Quote:(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth (Exodus 20:5).
Any five-year-old that didn't find that slightly worrying wasn't wired up properly.

Arguments made with the emotional maturity of a five-year-old are unlikely to make sense in the adult world but here and now is exactly that sort of argument.

Did Hitler think Aryans were next in line to become the chosen people if he got rid of the Jews? Did somebody scare the young Adolf and he never got over it?

For better or worse the past is another country.

What we are seeing is two self-declared independent states at war with each other. One state thought that killing Jews would bring others onto their side - so far that hasn't happened The more the current war is spun as a Holy War (by either side) the more likely it becomes that others will be left with little choice but to intervene in support their chosen religion.
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