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A science without time: Why isn't it central to physics?

#1
C C Offline
https://aeon.co/essays/why-doesn-t-physi...ow-of-time

EXCERPTS (Gene Tracy): . . . The flow of time is certainly one of the most immediate aspects of our waking experience. It is essential to how we see ourselves and to how we think we should live our lives. Our memories help fix who we are; other thoughts reach forward to what we might become. Surely our modern scientific sense of time, as it grows ever more sophisticated, should provide meaningful insights here.

Yet today’s physicists rarely debate what time is and why we experience it the way we do, remembering the past but never the future...

[...] To declare that question outside the pale of physical theory doesn’t make it meaningless. The flow of time could still be real as part of our internal experience, just real in a different way from a proton or a galaxy.

Is our experience of time’s flow akin to watching a live play, where things occur in the moment but not before or after, a flickering in and out of existence around the ‘now’? Or, is it like watching a movie, where all eternity is already in the can, and we are watching a discrete sequence of static image, fooled by our limited perceptual apparatus into thinking the action flows smoothly?

The Newtonian and Einsteinian world theories offer little guidance. They are both eternalised ‘block’ universes, in which time is a dimension not unlike space, so everything exists all at once. Einstein’s equations allow different observers to disagree about the duration of time intervals, but the spacetime continuum itself [...] is an invariant stage upon which the drama of the world takes place.

In quantum mechanics, as in Newton’s mechanics and Einstein’s relativistic theories, the laws of physics that govern the microscopic world look the same going forward or backward in time. Even the innovative speculations of theorists such as Sean Carroll at Caltech in Pasadena – who conceives of time as an emergent phenomenon that arises out of a more primordial, timeless state – concern themselves more with what time does than what time feels like. Time’s flow appears nowhere in current theories of physics.

[...] How did that come to pass? Isn’t science supposed to test itself against the ground of experience? This disconnect might help to explain why so many students not only don’t ‘get’ physics, but are positively repulsed by it. Where are they in the world picture drawn by physicists? Where is life, and where is death? Where is the flow of time?

[...] Current cognitive science says that our memories are a kind of story that our brain creates, formed from the clay of sensory input, sorted into patterns based upon our past life experience, guided by predilections we have inherited in our DNA...

[...] Consider our experience of ‘now’. This seems at first to be a simple thing, a well-defined point in time. We certainly seem to anticipate a particular now coming at us from the future, and then receding from us into the past. Our experience of the ‘now’ is built out of a mix of recent memories and our current sense perceptions, what we see, hear, feel, taste and smell. Those sensory perceptions are not instantaneous, but signals from stimulated nerve endings...

[...] We usually don’t sense this mingling of near past and near future because our brain works quickly enough to obscure the process, but there are moments when it struggles to keep up...

[...] It’s possible that our experience of the flow of time is like our experience of colour. A physicist would say that colour does not exist as an inherent property of the world. Light has a variety of wavelengths, but they have no inherent property of ‘colour’...

[...] So the flow of time might be a story our brain creates, trying to make sense of chaos. In a 2013 paper, the physicists Leonard Mlodinow of Caltech and Todd Brun of the University of Southern California go even further and argue that any physical thing that has the characteristics of a memory will tend to align itself with the thermodynamic arrow of time, which in turn is defined by the behaviour of extremely large numbers of particles.

According to this theory, it is no puzzle that we remember the past but not the future, even though the microscopic laws of nature are the same going forward or backward in time, and the past and future both exist. The nature of large systems is to progress toward increasing entropy – a measure of disorder, commonly experienced as the tendency of hot or cold objects to come into equilibrium with their surroundings. Increasing entropy means that a memory of the past is dynamically stable, whereas a memory of the future is unstable.

In this interpretation, we are unable to see the future not because it is impossible to do so, but because it is as unlikely as seeing a broken window heal itself, or as a tepid cup of tea taking energy from the atoms of the surrounding room and spontaneously beginning to boil. It is statistically extremely, extremely unlikely...

[...] Lee Smolin at the Perimeter Institute in Ontario argues that scientists must change tack, accepting the flow of time as real and building the church of a new physics upon that rock.

The British physicist Julian Barbour takes an opposite stance; going beyond Newton and Einstein, in The End of Time (1999) he proposes that time itself is an illusion. Instead, the Universe consists of a collection of static moments, like a pile of unsorted photographs tossed into a shoebox. Each photo contains a snapshot of the world entire, a unique configuration of all things: planets, galaxies, bumblebees, people. Barbour gives the collection of all possible moments an evocative name: The Heap.

Because each instant in The Heap is a moment of the entire world, it contains references to all other moments, so the shoebox also contains an implied web of connections, branching threads of mutual association. Following a single thread, one would experience an apparent flow of time. Most threads would follow isolated paths that are without sense or meaning, but a very few threads and their neighbours follow paths that are mutually coherent. We might say that such paths tell a story, or that they include a sensible memory of the past at each step. The family of threads that are mutually coherent is robust, whereas the isolated and incoherent threads are fragile, with brittle associations providing no neighbouring reinforcement... (MORE - missing details)

RELATED (scivillage): Is Time Real? David Eagleman interview.
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#2
confused2 Offline
The way I see it you can't go backwards in time because the space just behind you is already occupied (by you). So you can only go forwards. If you started off going backwards in time the reverse would apply and you could only continue to go back. If 'most things' are going forwards then anything going backwards would keep colliding with the things traveling forwards. The actual forwards/backwards might originally have been arbitrary but once one direction gains an advantage everything has little choice but to go that way. Microscopic (QM) things don't tend to collide with anything (including themselves) and can go either way but mice and men have to go with the flow.
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#3
Magical Realist Online
Quote:It’s possible that our experience of the flow of time is like our experience of colour. A physicist would say that colour does not exist as an inherent property of the world. Light has a variety of wavelengths, but they have no inherent property of ‘colour’...[...] So the flow of time might be a story our brain creates, trying to make sense of chaos.

Quote:In the same way that colors don't actually exist in the outside world. All you have is electromagnetic radiation of different wavelengths, and your brain constructs color. Maybe the brain constructs time, and there's no such thing as that.

Time in this sense may be a qualia--a fundamental irreducible or property of consciousness. The flow of time may be an effect of the constancy of awareness as contrasted with change. Just as we can perceive a change in color, we perceive a change of states. This changing isn't real in itself. It is an effect of the mind in its emerging/fading nature. A construct we project over our world as if happening all around us, like color. JMO...
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#4
Secular Sanity Offline
(Nov 27, 2022 07:18 PM)confused2 Wrote: The way I see it you can't go backwards in time because the space just behind you is already occupied (by you). So you can only go forwards. If you started off going backwards in time the reverse would apply and you could only continue to go back. If 'most things' are going forwards then anything going backwards would keep colliding with the things traveling forwards. The actual forwards/backwards might originally have been arbitrary but once one direction gains an advantage everything has little choice but to go that way. Microscopic (QM) things don't tend to collide with anything (including themselves) and can go either way but mice and men have to go with the flow.

The way I see it is that you can never go backwards because you’re never in the same spot, e.g., Earth’s rotation, Earth’s orbit around the Sun, the Sun’s orbit around the Galaxy, etc. Unless, of course, you’re looking in a mirror, but then, you’d get infinitely smaller and smaller.
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#5
confused2 Offline
I'm not totally convinced by my direction of time suggestion - it was just a thought..

I'm channeling the likes of rpenner from an old forum with no claim to personal inspiration.

'Absolute space' doesn't exist so there can be no motion relative to it. There is only motion relative to other things - hence "Theory of Relativity".

Your (I assume) desk stays stationary in front of you regardless of the motion of anything else in the universe. In the context of my suggestion - a chair stays behind you until you move forwards or up - you can't go back or down because the chair is there.

Light clocks are a boring thing until you get the "Oh, gosh, wow." relativity effect. We could maybe do one here if anyone liked the idea.
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#6
C C Offline

The Time Machine (1895): "There are really four dimensions, three which we call the three planes of Space, and a fourth, Time. There is, however, a tendency to draw an unreal distinction between the former three dimensions and the latter, because it happens that our consciousness moves intermittently in one direction along the latter from the beginning to the end of our lives." (H.G. WELLS actually got this from the mathematicians and physicists of the late 19th-century who were working on the precursor conception of time as a fourth dimension, prior to Minkowski and Einstein fleshing out their own technical formulations years later.)

Herman Weyl (1949): “The objective world is, it does not happen. Only to the gaze of my consciousness, crawling along the lifeline of my body, does a section of this world come to life as a fleeting image in space which continuously changes in time.” --Philosophy of Mathematics and Natural Science


What's funny, though, is that I wouldn't even know or remember that my mental experiences had anomalously changed temporal direction, after the so-called "flow or crawl of my consciousness" likewise randomly switched back toward the future orientation again.

An analogy is how if an old-fashioned reel of film is moved on the projector in the opposite direction, and then flipped back to "normal", the characters in the movie don't remark afterwards upon their having moved and spoken in reverse. Because that act doesn't affect and alter the information content in the frames of the strip anymore than the "forward" direction does.[1]

Even if the film consisted of more than superficial appearances -- i.e., carried holographic data down to a microscopic and subatomic level, so that the movie characters literally had brains, the changing configurations of the latter would be just as set and immutable as the body actions of the figures and audio tracks etched on the traditional film medium.   

Only the audience external to the system can be aware that something "unusual" transpired on the screen (changes transpiring in reverse). But apart from purely speculative gods or supernatural or higher dimensional observers, there arguably is no "audience" outside our spacetime confinement (no God's Eye view).

Robert Geroch (1978): "There is no dynamics within space-time itself: nothing ever moves therein; nothing happens; nothing changes. [...] In particular, one does not think of particles as 'moving through' space-time, or as 'following along' their world-lines. Rather, particles are just 'in' space-time, once and for all, and the world-line represents, all at once the complete life history of the particle." --General Relativity from A to B

- - - footnote - - -

[1] Dropping out of the metaphor and back to our scenario: One could regard physical structure [the brain's] as affecting experience, but experience doesn't affect physical structure. Akin to their asymmetrical causal relationship in epiphenomenalism.
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#7
confused2 Offline
I'm more for looking at the distance between NYC and Poughkeepsie - you don't have to like the answer but I'm fairly sure that won't change it. You travel distance s in time t at velocity v. I would agree that a little magic can ? .. and so ..I'm tempted to have a go at the light clock just for me - even if no-one else cares.

Testing. Yay .. sig works. .. or maybe not. Next time I'll know for sure. .. the light clock is coming..
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#8
Secular Sanity Offline
You’re right, of course. Relativistic Time just is. It doesn’t flow, but god’s been resting ever since, and laziness (equilibrium) with free lunches and all will simply make you fat (cosmological arrow of time). It’s always easier to gain rather than lose weight, isn’t it?
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#9
confused2 Offline
SS Wrote:Relativistic Time just is.
I wasn't expecting a put-down quite like that. Sometimes I stare into the void and the void doesn't even bother to stare back.
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#10
Secular Sanity Offline
(Dec 1, 2022 04:56 PM)confused2 Wrote:
SS Wrote:Relativistic Time just is.
I wasn't expecting a put-down quite like that. Sometimes I stare into the void and the void doesn't even bother to stare back.

Don't mind me, C2. By all means, carry on with your light clock.
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