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Kramatorsk railway station missile strike

#1
Kornee Offline
I know this is politically unpopular, but the evidence is shaping up pretty strongly the Kramatorsk railway station missile strike in *Eastern* Ukraine's disputed Donbass region, was a FF perpetrated by Ukrainian operatives:
https://www.europereloaded.com/is-the-kr...in-a-week/
Is there credible *evidence* to the contrary?
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#2
confused2 Offline
Both sides are capturing equipment from the other. Nothing much proves anything about anything. I think I'm correct that there are Russians on both sides so it wouldn't be difficult to infiltrate the Ukrainian side with Putin fanciers. Same sort of problem with the Bucha killings where the Russians claim the bodies weren't there when they left - so who killed them? Satellite images suggest the bodies were already there ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/60981238 ) but they could have been photo-shopped in.
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#3
confused2 Offline
Looking at the BBC report on the railway station missile strike
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61036740
Quote:However, analysts point to images and videos on social media that appear to show the Russian military using the Tochka-U.
Link inside quote to Toschkas in Ukraine :
https://twitter.com/citeam_en/status/150...y1BVC8KXIA

So the claim that Russia isn't using Toschkas therefore the Toschka must have been a false flag attack seems misinformed if not willfully misinforming. The serial number that suggests the missile was from Ukrainian stock could have been changed but that seems too clever for a battlefield situation. Another possibility is that both the close serial numbers were from Russian stock with whatever consequences that might have.

If the best lie is that Russia isn't using Toschkas when they are - that isn't a good start from a credibility point of view.
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#4
Kornee Offline
The fog of war. But in this case it just reeks of FF. The train station was packed with ethnic Russians trying to escape East. Would it make a shred of sense for the Russian military to target their own future citizens? Like - how raving insane is the portrayal here? And to top off the insanity - they supposedly painted that 'For The Children' slogan prior to decimating their own people! Sure. That would so work in their favor both internationally and domestically. NOT!

That pure barbarism atrocity narrative does though play up very well as shrill plucking-the-heartstrings war propaganda in our MSM who sing a particularly united tune.
This is The Grand Chessboard moving up another strategic notch imo.
Evidently the Oligarch Chessboard players are banking on Putin being knocked off in a coup, or otherwise never up to using the nuke option as last resort. Risky stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pA2tDKzzoI
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#6
stryder Offline
It was more likely Russia back seperatists from the Donbas enclaves if it was going to be anyone.

Just a point, theres a lot of attempts to paint the Ukraine as doing it to themselves, however even though they couldn't confirm or deny their involvement of the strikes on Belgorod. The targets were installations not civillian domiciles, hospitals, schools or train stations. (If they truly were as bad as Russia claims, then those would of been targetted in retaliation which it was not)
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#7
Kornee Offline
From the link I gave earlier:
"1. The trajectory of the missile. A missile’s tail falls before the head, therefore it is possible to project the trajectory of the missile, which I illustrate below. The rocket approached Kramatorsk from slightly south of west. That area is under full control of the UAF."

https://twitter.com/SergeRousskikh/statu...-a-week%2F

Reinforced by this MoonOfAlabama site update of April 09:
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/04/mo...torsk.html

And to repeat from #4 - why the hell would the Russians be so foolish as to deliberately poison their reputation by painting that 'For The Children' on the missile?
It's crude but effective false flag propaganda from the Ukrainian side - knowing in advance the 'Western' MSM will play it up uncritically as 'yet another Russian atrocity'.
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#8
C C Offline
(Apr 12, 2022 01:28 AM)stryder Wrote: It was more likely Russia back seperatists from the Donbas enclaves if it was going to be anyone.

Just a point, theres a lot of attempts to paint the Ukraine as doing it to themselves, however even though they couldn't confirm or deny their involvement of the strikes on Belgorod.  The targets were installations not civillian domiciles, hospitals, schools or train stations.  (If they truly were as bad as Russia claims, then those would of been targetted in retaliation which it was not)

There's already a Wikipedia entry about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramatorsk...ion_attack

EXCERPTS: [...] media affiliated with the People's Republic of Donetsk had published videos showing the launching of a pair of missiles from Shakhtarsk, a city under separatist control.

[...] The missiles were initially misidentified as 9K720 Iskander ballistic missiles. Pavlo Kyrylenko, governor of Donetsk oblast, later specified that they had rather been Tochka-U missiles armed with cluster munitions.

[...] Initially, Russian state media and pro-Russian Telegram channels claimed successful Russian airstrikes on the Ukrainian military at the railway station of Kramatorsk. After it became clear that the missiles had killed civilians, however, earlier reports were redacted, the Russian government denied responsibility for the attack, and the Russian Ministry of Defence characterized it as a Ukrainian hoax. The Russian Ministry of Defence claimed that the missiles were launched by Ukrainian forces from Dobropillia, a city to the southwest of Kramatorsk.

The Russian Ministry of Defense claimed that their forces no longer use Tochka-U missiles; however, Amnesty International, the investigative journalists of the Conflict Intelligence Team, and a number of military experts had already reported the use of Tochkas by Russian forces in multiple parts of Ukraine prior to the strike on Kramatorsk.

Moreover, investigators from the open-source Belarusian Hajun Project had published videos of several Russian trucks with Tochka missiles heading from Belarus to Ukraine with 'V' markings on 5 March and 30 March. In addition, the Institute for the Study of War assessed that the Russian 8th Guards Combined Arms Army, which is active in the Donbas area, is equipped with Tochka-U missiles.

On the night of 7 April, the pro-Russian Telegram channel Записки Ветерана ("Veteran Notes") warned civilians not to evacuate from Sloviansk and Kramatorsk on railways. At 10:10 on April 8, shortly before the bombing of the railway station in Kramatorsk, the Russian Ministry of Defence announced that their forces hit railway stations in Sloviansk, Pokrovsk, and Barvinkove with "high-precision air-based missiles".

[...] Oleksandr Kamyshin, chairman of Ukrainian Railways, described the event as being a "targeted blow to the passenger infrastructure of the railway and the residents of the city of Kramatorsk". The Security Service of Ukraine opened criminal proceedings under Article 438 of the Criminal Code.

Royal United Services Institute analyst Justin Bronk said that Russia aims to damage Ukrainian transport infrastructure in order to make it difficult for Ukrainian forces to move around Donbas. He also suggested that Russia opted for that particular type of missile due to its presence in the Ukrainian army's arsenal, in order to "muddy the waters".

Also this:

https://www.businessinsider.com/syrians-...her-2022-4

Russia has appointed General Alexander Dvornikov to lead its Ukraine invasion.

Dvornikov has been widely dubbed the 'butcher of Syria' and had been reported to target civilians in conflict.

Syrians have reached out to help Ukrainians navigate the atrocities that might come.


EXCERPTS: Syrians are helping Ukrainians navigate Russia's aggression specifically after reports that General Alexander Dvornikov has been placed as the Russian military's new commander.

Olga Lautman [...] told Insider that following Russia's invasion of Ukraine, Syrians witnessing the atrocities and war crimes coming out of Ukraine reached out to assist Ukrainian organizations.

[...] "We see how similar the two situations are because Putin in Syria decimated cities. What he did, the atrocities that were committed under this general [Dvornikov]. This general is known for his role specifically in targeting civilians," she said. "The chemical attacks in Syria and the large amount mass graves that were uncovered in Syria -- Russia had a lot to do with this and now we see the general being appointed to oversee this. And one of his first tests was to send a missile strike on the train station, targeting refugees -- Ukrainians who were waiting for trains to leave."

She added that a doctor from the Syrian American Medical Association, which helped build underground hospitals in Syria to treat patients that were wounded or exposed to chemical attacks, went to Ukraine last week to help in hospitals.

"It just goes to show you the strength of Syrians because they saw the atrocities happening and the first instinct was, how can we help instead of, 'oh my God, we're really reliving the same thing again?'" Lautman said.

Russia has repeatedly dismissed and launched disinformation campaigns against allegations of targetting hospitals and civilian areas in Syria. In Ukraine, Russia has also denied accusations of war crimes, at one point calling, the massacre in the town of Bucha, a "Ukrainian hoax." (MORE - missing details)
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