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Animals wrestle with the concept of death and mortality

#1
C C Offline
https://aeon.co/essays/animals-wrestle-w...-mortality

INTRO: When the Virginia opossum feels threatened, she plays dead. Lying on the ground, curled up into something resembling the foetal position, with her eyes and mouth open and her tongue hanging out, she stops responding to the world. Her body temperature drops. Her breathing and heart rate are severely reduced. Her tongue, usually pink, takes on a blueish hue. She urinates, defecates, and expels a putrid-smelling liquid from her anal glands. To all outward appearance, she is no different from a corpse. In this deathly state, she waits. The opossum is aware of her surroundings, monitoring the present danger: a coyote in search of food. The canine, though, would rather feast on fresh meat than on some long-dead corpse, rotting and full of pathogens. And so the danger passes. Then the opossum springs back into action, unscathed and unfazed, and goes about the rest of her day. The trick worked.

Despite the persuasive performance of death, no one would assume that the opossum herself believes that she’s playing dead. Her behaviour is most likely automatic, and the opossum no more knows that she’s disguising as a corpse than a stick-insect knows that she looks like a stick. While this presupposition is probably right, it would nevertheless be wrong of us to assume that there’s nothing to learn about animals’ concept of death from the opossum’s display. In fact, her little show is one of the best pieces of evidence we have of how widely distributed in nature the concept of death is likely to be.

Humans have long thought of themselves as the only animal with a notion of mortality. Our concept of death is one of those characteristics, like culture, rationality, language or morality, that have traditionally been taken as definitional of the human species – setting us apart from the natural world and justifying our boundless use and exploitation of it. However, as I have argued elsewhere, the widespread notion that only humans can understand death stems from an overly complex view of this concept. The human concept of death is not necessarily the only concept of death.

Understanding death does not require grasping its inevitability or its unpredictability, nor does it require understanding that death applies to all living things or being familiar with its underlying physiological causes. In minimal terms, the concept of death is simply made up of two notions: non-functionality and irreversibility. This means that all an animal needs to grasp in order for us to be able to credit her with some understanding of death is that dead individuals don’t do the sorts of things that living beings of her kind usually do (ie, non-functionality) and that this is a permanent state (ie, irreversibility). This minimal concept of death requires very little cognitive complexity and is likely to be very widespread in the animal kingdom.

The opossum’s death display, also known as thanatosis, is an excellent demonstration of this, not because of what it tells us about the opossum’s mind, but because of what it shows us about the minds of her predators: animals such as coyotes, racoons, dogs, foxes, raptors, bobcats and large snakes. In the same way that the appearance of the stick insect tells us something about how her predators see the world, and which sorts of objects they avoid eating, the opossum’s thanatosis reveals how common the concept of death is likely to be among the animals that feed on her... (MORE)
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#2
Syne Offline
No, what a predator has learned is edible has nothing to do with any conception of non-functionality or irreversibility. There's is no indication that the animal is aware that an edible thing can become inedible.

This is just run-of-the-mill anthropomorphism. And it even announces itself by referring to an unspecified animal as "her" rather than "it."
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#3
Zinjanthropos Offline
I would think an impala trying to avoid the jaws of a leopard during a chase is aware of why it’s running. I’m sure impala have witnessed those times when a herd(?) member didn’t move fast enough.

There was a time when our ancestors weren’t top predator. If we didn’t know why we tried to escape predation back then, why do we know now?
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#4
Syne Offline
(Sep 17, 2021 05:13 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: I would think an impala trying to avoid the jaws of a leopard during a chase is aware of why it’s running. I’m sure impala have witnessed those times when a herd(?) member didn’t move fast enough.
If that were the case, young impala wouldn't know to run until they'd seen a death.

Quote: There was a time when our ancestors weren’t top predator. If we didn’t know why we tried to escape predation back then, why do we know now?
Our ability to reason.
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#5
Zinjanthropos Offline
(Sep 17, 2021 06:05 PM)Syne Wrote:
(Sep 17, 2021 05:13 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: I would think an impala trying to avoid the jaws of a leopard during a chase is aware of why it’s running. I’m sure impala have witnessed those times when a herd(?) member didn’t move fast enough.
If that were the case, young impala wouldn't know to run until they'd seen a death.

Quote: There was a time when our ancestors weren’t top predator. If we didn’t know why we tried to escape predation back then, why do we know now?
Our ability to reason.

Yah but young impala watch other impala run at a very early age. Those that don’t run fast get caught. Actually heard that it is better for a chased animal to bob & weave. Maybe some impala like hunt survivors might but not sure.

Ability to reason? Have a look at this….

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20...151206.htm
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#6
Syne Offline
(Sep 17, 2021 07:07 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: Yah but young impala watch other impala run at a very early age.
Watching is not knowing to run from a threat. That comes from instinct, not learning.

Quote:Those that don’t run fast get caught.
How would a young impala know that before seeing it? Again, instinct, not rationality.

Quote:Ability to reason? Have a look at this….

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20...151206.htm
Since that doesn't demonstrate any rational ability, only a response to the circumstance, it's pretty lame if that's all you have.
Seems you suffer from the same anthropomorphism.
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#7
Zinjanthropos Offline
Quote:Seems you suffer from the same anthropomorphism.


Yah right, but I don’t suffer Big Grin . I’m done with this thread.
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#8
Syne Offline
(Sep 17, 2021 10:23 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote:
Quote:Seems you suffer from the same anthropomorphism.


Yah right, but I don’t suffer Big Grin . I’m done with this thread.

Of course you don't suffer from thinking all the widdle animals are more like you. They're better friends than people, right?
Seems we touched a nerve there. Remember, there's a middle finger emoji now. ; P
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#9
confused2 Offline
From the OP:
Quote:When the Virginia opossum feels threatened, she plays dead.
Makes a good story - possums made a name for themselves by playing possum.
Obviously playing dead isn't always a very good strategy - its too late to play possum once a predator has you in plain sight.
Does an opossum even have any choice in the matter? Apparently it does.
From https://www.chesapeakebay.net/S=0/fieldg...ia_opossum
Quote:Opossums may also try to bluff predators into thinking they are aggressive by hissing and baring their teeth when feeling threatened.

So how do possums choose between hissing with bared teeth and playing dead? And, in line with the OP, why do they even bother?
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#10
C C Offline
(Sep 18, 2021 05:57 PM)confused2 Wrote: From the OP:
Quote:When the Virginia opossum feels threatened, she plays dead.
Makes a good story - possums made a name for themselves by playing possum.
Obviously playing dead isn't always a very good strategy - its too late to play possum once a predator has you in plain sight.
Does an opossum even have any choice in the matter? Apparently it does.
From  https://www.chesapeakebay.net/S=0/fieldg...ia_opossum
Quote:Opossums may also try to bluff predators into thinking they are aggressive by hissing and baring their teeth when feeling threatened.

So how do possums choose between hissing with bared teeth and playing dead? And, in line with the OP, why do they even bother?

They usually try to run away first; if that doesn't work or isn't feasible, then they go into the confrontational bluff of hissing, growling, bearing teeth. If their fear-related biochemical level maxes out, that's when they go comatose. It's not really a conscious choice -- almost like a form of shock that their body goes into, a tendency that evolution apparently favored and proliferated due to its happenstance survival value.
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