Aside from lawsuits and recount efforts, there are several ways Trump can still win, even with the electoral map as it stands right now.
State legislatures pick electors for the electoral college. Republicans hold a majority of state legislatures, but more importantly, they hold some key state legislatures. So they could pick electors who vote for Trump, regardless of how their state voted. These are called "faithless electors", and both parties had some in 2016, so it's not like its unprecedented.
Now many states have laws that either have penalties for and/or cancel the votes of faithless electors. But GA and PA have no such laws, and WI has no penalty, vote cancelling, or elector replacement. All of those states have Republican controlled legislatures. So if NC holds for Trump (which it looks like it will), all he needs is Republican legislators in those states to pick Trump electors.
https://www.fairvote.org/faithless_elector_state_laws
Another option is available if the electoral college has a tie, which is quite possible with faithless electors, or is otherwise disputed (unprecedented). In the event of an EC tie, the House votes for president while the Senate votes for VP. Now, you may think that means a Biden/Pence administration, but that's not at all likely. While every Senator gets one vote, meaning the majority wins, every Representative does not. Reps vote as blocs by state. So California's 53 Reps only get one vote, and Nebraska's 3 Reps also get one vote. So even though Democrats hold the House, they have fewer state contingents. That means that Trump wins a tie breaker vote in the House.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurke...-election/
And before anyone is ignorant enough to whine about Republicans destroying democracy, remember, the word "democracy" is no where in the Constitution. The US is a republic, which has safeguards against a tyranny of the majority. This is good, otherwise moron leftist in California and elsewhere would have many more states facing their budget shortfalls, homelessness, crime, rioting, etc..
From what I've been reading (the media tends to lie, though) while all those scenarios are possible options, it's looking unlikely that Trump will beat Biden. It seems to hinge on PA, where Biden is strong. He wouldn't need to win any other state if he ''wins'' PA. In other words, even if fraud was discovered - Biden's overall lead still defeats Trump. I've been reading that Trump hopes the SC will ''come through,'' but they can't do much if evidence isn't discovered.
My concern at this point is...what is considered ''evidence?'' Who is gathering this evidence, and are they being given the tools to investigate this in the most thorough way possible? I mean, if shady stuff was going on during the vote count, who is to say those who may be guilty of fraud, wouldn't try their best to cover it up?
(Nov 12, 2020 04:27 AM)Leigha Wrote: [ -> ]From what I've been reading (the media tends to lie, though) while all those scenarios are possible options, it's looking unlikely that Trump will beat Biden. It seems to hinge on PA, where Biden is strong. He wouldn't need to win any other state if he ''wins'' PA. In other words, even if fraud was discovered - Biden's overall lead still defeats Trump. I've been reading that Trump hopes the SC will ''come through,'' but they can't do much if evidence isn't discovered.
My concern at this point is...what is considered ''evidence?'' Who is gathering this evidence, and are they being given the tools to investigate this in the most thorough way possible? I mean, if shady stuff was going on during the vote count, who is to say those who may be guilty of fraud, wouldn't try their best to cover it up?
That's the point. Even if Biden is certified as winning 270 electoral votes or more, these possibilities still exist.
Trump already has SC, and a strong lead in NC, with 99% reporting (we'll know for sure Friday). And yeah, some of the fraud may be undetectable at this point, as fraudulent, anonymous ballots could already be mixed in with valid ones.
But Biden winning the electoral college votes isn't the end. Those electors still have to be chosen, largely by Republican legislatures, and they still have to vote, with the possibility for faithless votes. So even with 270 electoral votes, Biden could still lose.
Ordinarily I'd consider the prospect to be Sci-Fi & Fantasy. Except that for the past five years (counting 2015 when he began campaigning) Trump has been saying and doing things that seemed like "firsts" in terms of a candidate/POTUS getting away with it and even benefitting from such (Bill Clinton may still hold the invulnerable title for sex outrage while in office, though).
Considering that Trump winning in 2016 was a laughed-off impossibility, Biden should probably not feel free of goosebumps till a feet into January. I mean, before Atlantis was discovered at the bottom of the sea and the space-aliens landed in Wrigley Field it would have been ridiculous to suggest that, but since then...
(Nov 12, 2020 05:44 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ] (Nov 12, 2020 04:27 AM)Leigha Wrote: [ -> ]From what I've been reading (the media tends to lie, though) while all those scenarios are possible options, it's looking unlikely that Trump will beat Biden. It seems to hinge on PA, where Biden is strong. He wouldn't need to win any other state if he ''wins'' PA. In other words, even if fraud was discovered - Biden's overall lead still defeats Trump. I've been reading that Trump hopes the SC will ''come through,'' but they can't do much if evidence isn't discovered.
My concern at this point is...what is considered ''evidence?'' Who is gathering this evidence, and are they being given the tools to investigate this in the most thorough way possible? I mean, if shady stuff was going on during the vote count, who is to say those who may be guilty of fraud, wouldn't try their best to cover it up?
That's the point. Even if Biden is certified as winning 270 electoral votes or more, these possibilities still exist.
Trump already has SC, and a strong lead in NC, with 99% reporting (we'll know for sure Friday). And yeah, some of the fraud may be undetectable at this point, as fraudulent, anonymous ballots could already be mixed in with valid ones.
But Biden winning the electoral college votes isn't the end. Those electors still have to be chosen, largely by Republican legislatures, and they still have to vote, with the possibility for faithless votes. So even with 270 electoral votes, Biden could still lose.
Let's say for a moment that Trump's attempt to remain in the seat of power goes his way, what do you think it will do for your country or peoples perception of democracy as a whole? Will people accept it? Or would it literally turn into mass numbers of people demonstrating in response to what they might see as an abuse of power? If they demonstrate would this not increase the potential of exposure to viral contamination and in turn put more lives at risk?
Truth be told I would be interested to view Trumps past golf games to see if he cheats since that is ultimately where there would be a tell for any form of abuse on his part.
Sorry, by "SC'' I meant Supreme Court.
So, the electors have the final say in the outcome. But, they likely should vote as their state ''dictates,'' one would think?
(Nov 12, 2020 05:56 AM)stryder Wrote: [ -> ]Let's say for a moment that Trump's attempt to remain in the seat of power goes his way, what do you think it will do for your country or peoples perception of democracy as a whole? Will people accept it? Or would it literally turn into mass numbers of people demonstrating in response to what they might see as an abuse of power? If they demonstrate would this not increase the potential of exposure to viral contamination and in turn put more lives at risk?
Truth be told I would be interested to view Trumps past golf games to see if he cheats since that is ultimately where there would be a tell for any form of abuse on his part.
Maybe people will finally learn, as mentioned in my OP, that the US is a republic, not a democracy. That means that democratic processes are not guarantees that a bare majority can exert their will on everyone else. Democrats (or whatever rises from their ashes) need to learn the hard lessen that they need to get back to compromising, instead of burning down our institutions (and cities) when they don't get their way.
Dems won't accept it anymore than they accepted Trump's first term, which was not at all. And after all the Dem mayors and governors have given them license to riot and loot, I'm sure they'll resort to that in force...especially after the media has wound them up assuring them they've already won. They'll riot because they are ignorant of what actual constitutes an abuse of power in the US, which isn't just anything they don't like.
They're already risking Covid in mass celebrations in the streets without any social distancing. Just like they've done in all the other protests this year. They don't care, and that exposes the hypocrisy of their lock downs, restrictions, and virtue-signalling.
(Nov 12, 2020 06:03 AM)Leigha Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry, by "SC'' I meant Supreme Court.
So, the electors have the final say in the outcome. But, they likely should vote as their state ''dictates,'' one would think?
Oh, I think Trump likely could count on SCOTUS, but the larger legal hurdle is getting enough cases, to flip enough states, there in the first place. Otherwise, a SCOTUS ruling is a moot point.
2016 had faithless electors, which cost Hillary 5 votes and Trump 2. Whether they "should" or not, each state has its own laws and consequences, or lack thereof. Since GA and PA have no laws against it and WI no penalties or cancelling of faithless votes, there's really nothing to stop it and it's perfectly legal.
The electoral college, state legislature pick of electors, and possible freedom of electors to vote their conscience are all Constitutional measures to safeguard against tyranny of the majority. It really is amazing how well the founding father crafted it...which is why power-grabbing Democrats and proto-fascist leftists hate it so much.
Okay, gotcha.
Perhaps many American voters believe they’re casting a ballot for an individual (it wouldn’t be wrong to perceive that) but, in reality we’re voting for electors.
If Trump wins through “deviant votes,” that would be something.
Yeah, faithless electors changing the outcome would be unprecedented. But then, so is this level of election "irregularities".