Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

(Dec 3, 2016 07:36 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]You do know that after the civil rights act passed with the help of establishment republicans, the racists in the democratic party all joined the populist racists in the republican party, forming our modern GOP. Why do you think all the southern and midwestern states are red states now? Factor in all the bible thumpers joining the republican party too to stone gays and save fetuses, and well that's what we have today--a party of fearmongering haters and uneducated white people. See Trump effect.

Then prove that claim. Cite sources for when the parties supposedly switched side. Then cite sources for when the south began voting more republican. Cite me a list of bad democrats who became republicans, and the good republicans becoming democrats. Cite when blacks started voting democrat.

Or just continue to make unsupported claims, which are easy to just ignore. Watch this...if you dare.

Here's a shorter one, just in case your intellectual honesty isn't worth a little patience.

"In 1980, the Southern Strategy would see fruition when Ronald Reagan announced that he supported states rights and that welfare abuse justified the need for it. Lee Atwater, who served Reagan's chief strategist in the Southern states, claimed that by 1968, a vast majority of southern whites had learned to accept that racial slurs like "nigger" were very offensive and that mentioning "states rights" and reasons for its justification had now become the best way to appeal to southern white voters.[8] Later Republican candidates were accused of using racial appeals similar to Reagan[citation needed]. For example, George H.W. Bush faced accusations of racism with the Willie Horton ads[citation needed], while Newt Gingrich faced similar criticism in 2012 by calling Barack Obama a food-stamp president.[citation needed]

The South became fertile ground for the GOP, which conversely was becoming more conservative as the Democrats were becoming more liberal[citation needed]. Democratic incumbents, however, still held sway over voters in many states, especially in Deep South. Although Republicans won most presidential elections in Southern states starting in 1964, Democrats controlled nearly every Southern state legislature until the mid-1990s and had a moderate (although not huge) amount of members in state legislatures until 2010. In fact, until 2002, Democrats still had much control over Southern politics. It wasn't until the 1990s that Democratic control began to implode, starting with the elections of 1994, in which Republicans gained control of both houses of Congress, through the rest of the decade. By the mid-1990s, however, the political value of the race card was evaporating and many Republicans began to court African Americans by playing on their vast dedication to Christian conservatism.[9]

Republicans first dominated presidential elections in the South, then controlled Southern gubernatorial and U.S. Congress elections, then took control of elections to several state legislatures and came to be competitive in or even to control local offices in the South. Southern Democrats of today who vote for the Democratic ticket are mostly urban liberals. Rural residents tend to vote for the Republican ticket, although there are sizable numbers of Conservative Democrats."---https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Democrats

LOL. Everything that may seem to back your claims is marked "citation needed". Everything else demonstrates there was never a huge exodus from the democrats immediately following 1964-65.

Democratic incumbents, however, still held sway over voters in many states, especially in Deep South. Although Republicans won most presidential elections in Southern states starting in 1964, Democrats controlled nearly every Southern state legislature until the mid-1990s and had a moderate (although not huge) amount of members in state legislatures until 2010. In fact, until 2002, Democrats still had much control over Southern politics. It wasn't until the 1990s that Democratic control began to implode, starting with the elections of 1994, in which Republicans gained control of both houses of Congress, through the rest of the decade. By the mid-1990s, however, the political value of the race card was evaporating and many Republicans began to court African Americans by playing on their vast dedication to Christian conservatism. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Democrats

"Modern conservatives are oddly fond of pointing out that it was Democrats who were the party of racism and racists until half a century ago. There's always an implied "Aha!" whenever a conservative mentions this, as though they think it's some little-known quirk of history that Democrats try to keep hidden because it's so embarrassing.

It's not, of course. Abraham Lincoln was the first Republican president, and Republicans were the face of Reconstruction and voting rights for blacks after the Civil War. Because of this, the South became solidly Democratic and stayed that way until World War II. But in the 1940s, racist white southerners gradually began defecting to the Republican Party, and then began defecting en masse during the fight over the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

But wait: the 1940s? If Southern whites began defecting that early, then partisan changes in racial tolerance couldn't have been their motivation. Right?

But it was. The Civil Rights movement didn't spring out of nothing in 1964, after all. Eleanor Roosevelt was a tireless champion of civil rights, and famously resigned from the DAR when they refused to allow singer Marian Anderson to perform at Constitution Hall in 1939. FDR was far more constrained by his need for Southern votes in Congress—and it showed in most New Deal programs—but the WPA gave blacks a fair shake and Harold Ickes poured a lot of money into black schools and hospitals in the South. In 1941 FDR signed a nondiscrimination order for the national defense industry—the first of its kind—and he generally provided African-Americans with more visibility in his administration than they had ever enjoyed before. After decades of getting little back from Republicans despite their loyal support, this was enough to make blacks a key part of the New Deal Coalition and turn them into an increasingly solid voting bloc for the Democratic Party.

From a Southern white perspective, this made the Democratic Party a less welcoming home, and it continued to get less welcoming in the two decades that followed. Harry Truman integrated the military in 1948, and Hubert Humphrey famously delivered a stemwinding civil rights speech at the Democratic convention that year. LBJ was instrumental in passing the Civil Rights Act of 1957, while Republican Dwight Eisenhower was widely viewed—rightly or wrongly—as unsympathetic to civil rights during the 1950s.

In other words, Southern whites who wanted to keep Jim Crow intact had plenty of reasons to steadily desert the Democratic Party and join the GOP starting around World War II. By the early 60s they were primed and ready to begin a massive exodus from the increasingly black-friendly Democratic Party, and exit they did. Barry Goldwater, the 1964 GOP nominee, refused to support the Civil Rights Act that year, and influential conservative thinkers like William F. Buckley were decidedly unfriendly toward black equality. This made the Republican Party more and more appealing to Southern white racists, and by 1968 Richard Nixon decided to explicitly reach out to them with a campaign based on states' rights and "law and order." Over the next two decades, the Democratic Party became ever less tolerant of racist sentiment and the exodus continued. By 1994, when Georgia Republican Newt Gingrich won a landslide victory in the midterm elections, the transition of the white South from solidly Democratic to solidly Republican was basically complete."----http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/20...hite-south

I doubt you really want to go back and forth just quoting heavily partisan sources (like this screed from motherjones), since we could both do that ad infinitum. That's boring, and makes it look like you cannot make your own arguments and support them with facts. For instance, haven't the southern states always been interested in protecting states' rights? Which party made the move, starting in 1933, to greatly expand the role of the federal government in the economy and promoting collectivism? But politics couldn't possibly be that 3-dimentional, could it? Nah, since states' rights was an argument for slavery during the Civil War, it couldn't possibly be true that people had an interest in protecting their local autonomy for any other reason than slavery [sarcasm]. Except that states' right is, to this day, enshrined in the US constitution. Didn't the "southern racists" still voted democrat for decades after the Civil Rights Act? Why would they do that, if race was their primary issue?

Quote:Didn't the "southern racists" still voted democrat for decades after the Civil Rights Act? Why would they do that, if race was their primary issue?

No..they started voting for republican presidents. Remember Nixon and Ronnie? Nixon ran on "law and order." That's code for racial profiling and drug busts and "stop and frisk".

Quote:That's boring, and makes it look like you cannot make your own arguments and support them with facts.

You demanded citations. That's not my own arguments. That's data from another source. You got it. Quit bitching.

(Dec 4, 2016 12:39 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:Didn't the "southern racists" still voted democrat for decades after the Civil Rights Act? Why would they do that, if race was their primary issue?

No..they started voting for republican presidents. Remember Nixon and Ronnie? Nixon ran on "law and order." That's code for racial profiling and drug busts and "stop and frisk".

Yes, they did still vote for many state and federal democrats for decades. Look it up. Assuming the south was generally, legitimately racist, wouldn't it make more sense that, once they lost the Jim Crow laws, they would still vote for the same politicians who would do stuff like stop and frisk? You know, the same guys that did Jim Crow? Since when do presidents decide local law enforcement? Wouldn't it make more sense that, once having a president who could veto any civil right legislation was a moot point, they would be free to vote for the president that most aligned with their other priorities?

Try to think about it a bit before any knee-jerk parroting of partisan narratives.

Quote:

Quote:That's boring, and makes it look like you cannot make your own arguments and support them with facts.

You demanded citations. That's not my own arguments. That's data from another source. You got it. Quit bitching.

That's not data...it's a cherry-picked and loosely strung together series of suppositions...from a biased source...with no secret about its agenda.

Quote:Yes, they did still vote for many state and federal democrats for decades.

I said presidents and you know it.

Quote:That's not data...it's a cherry-picked and loosely strung together series of suppositions...from a biased source...with no secret about its agenda.

Yes it is data. It's historical facts. Now you're just arguing with no point to make.

(Dec 4, 2016 06:16 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:Yes, they did still vote for many state and federal democrats for decades.

I said presidents and you know it.

You saying they voted for republican presidents doesn't change the fact that "the "southern racists" still voted democrat for decades after the Civil Rights Act". That was the question, and you chose to cherry-pick presidents when you know you weren't asked about presidents. Even so, it's laughable that you think presidents have anything to do with local law enforcement.

Quote:

Quote:That's not data...it's a cherry-picked and loosely strung together series of suppositions...from a biased source...with no secret about its agenda.

Yes it is data. It's historical facts. Now you're just arguing with no point to make.

Yeah, strung together with a decidedly partisan narrative. Do you really think that whole thing is fact, start to end? Naive much?

(Dec 4, 2016 06:55 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]

(Dec 4, 2016 06:16 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:Yes, they did still vote for many state and federal democrats for decades.

I said presidents and you know it.

You saying they voted for republican presidents doesn't change the fact that "the "southern racists" still voted democrat for decades after the Civil Rights Act". That was the question, and you chose to cherry-pick presidents when you know you weren't asked about presidents. Even so, it's laughable that you think presidents have anything to do with local law enforcement.

Quote:

Quote:That's not data...it's a cherry-picked and loosely strung together series of suppositions...from a biased source...with no secret about its agenda.

Yes it is data. It's historical facts. Now you're just arguing with no point to make.

Yeah, strung together with a decidedly partisan narrative. Do you really think that whole thing is fact, start to end? Naive much?

The "southern strategy" is a fact of American history.

"In American politics, southern strategy refers to methods the Republican Party used to gain political support in the South by appealing to the racism against African Americans harbored by many southern white voters.[

As the African American Civil Rights Movement and dismantling of Jim Crow laws in the 1950s and 1960s visibly deepened pre-existing racial tensions in much of the Southern United States, Republican politicians such as presidential candidate Richard Nixon and Senator Barry Goldwater developed strategies that successfully contributed to the political realignment of many white, conservative voters in the South to the Republican Party that had traditionally supported the Democratic Party...

Although the phrase "Southern strategy" is often attributed to Nixon's political strategist Kevin Phillips, he did not originate it[15] but popularized it.[16] In an interview included in a 1970 New York Times article, Phillips stated his analysis based on studies of ethnic voting:

"From now on, the Republicans are never going to get more than 10 to 20 percent of the Negro vote and they don't need any more than that...but Republicans would be shortsighted if they weakened enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. The more Negroes who register as Democrats in the South, the sooner the Negrophobe whites will quit the Democrats and become Republicans. That's where the votes are. Without that prodding from the blacks, the whites will backslide into their old comfortable arrangement with the local Democrats."

While Phillips sought to increase Republican power by polarizing ethnic voting in general, and not just to win the white South, the South was by far the biggest prize yielded by his approach. Its success began at the presidential level. Gradually southern voters began to elect Republicans to Congress, and finally to statewide and local offices, particularly as some legacy segregationist Democrats retired or switched to the GOP. In addition, the Republican Party worked for years to develop grassroots political organizations across the South, supporting candidates for local school boards and city and county offices, as examples. But, following the Watergate scandal, in the 1976 election, southern voters came out in support for the "favorite son" candidate, Southern Democrat Jimmy Carter.

From 1948 to 1984 the Southern states, for decades a stronghold for the Democrats, became key swing states, providing the popular vote margins in the 1960, 1968 and 1976 elections. During this era, several Republican candidates expressed support for states' rights, a reversal of the position held by southern states prior to the Civil War. Some political analysts said this term was used in the 20th century as a "code word" to represent opposition to federal enforcement of civil rights for blacks and to federal intervention on their behalf; many individual southerners had opposed passage of the Voting Rights Act."-----https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy