If our smart devices are gradually getting smaller then why aren’t there any real intelligent tiny organisms? At least I don’t think Earth has any. I have cells that contain genetic information on how to build one of us but I wouldn’t say it’s intelligent....maybe I should?
I suppose I could go to another planet and find a life form the size of a wristwatch that’s smarter than all of us. Does evolution require a certain sized organism before it tries putting intelligence in there?
An observation from elte: "I saw Zin's post on brain size and figured bird's are geniuses for their brain size. I can't contact him because he doesn't accept PMs.. "
(Apr 18, 2020 09:59 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: If our smart devices are gradually getting smaller then why aren’t there any real intelligent tiny organisms? At least I don’t think Earth has any. I have cells that contain genetic information on how to build one of us but I wouldn’t say it’s intelligent....maybe I should?
It's "memory" at least, not just in terms of instructions for body design but animal instincts. Plus DNA methylation encoding.
Quote:I suppose I could go to another planet and find a life form the size of a wristwatch that’s smarter than all of us. Does evolution require a certain sized organism before it tries putting intelligence in there?
Nanoelectronic transistors are significantly smaller than biological cells, so any artificial beings that inherit an alien civilization after their creators go obsolete could be quite small if they need to be.
Quote:Nanoelectronic transistors are significantly smaller than biological cells, so any artificial beings that inherit an alien civilization after their creators go obsolete could be quite small if they need to be.
Even cells, could they be smaller? I'm thinking they're the size they are either because evolution won't risk smaller (too much other stuff going on) or it's physically impossible. What if a small tiny predatory organism could think its way around on Earth, we'd probably go extinct.
C CApr 21, 2020 02:57 AM (This post was last modified: Apr 21, 2020 03:58 AM by C C.
Edit Reason: typo
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(Apr 20, 2020 07:31 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote:
Quote:Nanoelectronic transistors are significantly smaller than biological cells, so any artificial beings that inherit an alien civilization after their creators go obsolete could be quite small if they need to be.
Even cells, could they be smaller? I'm thinking they're the size they are either because evolution won't risk smaller (too much other stuff going on) or it's physically impossible. What if a small tiny predatory organism could think its way around on Earth, we'd probably go extinct.
The smallest viruses can get to down 17nm in size, but of course it's controversial that they are alive since they lack metabolic structure. So-called nanobes and nanobacteria that approach that level have more or less been discredited as organisms.
In some respects, prokaryotes can get below 400 nanometers. For instance, there's a species of Mycoplasma bacteria that is only 100nm in diameter width-wise, but ten times that in length. But somewhere under those spans a non-artificial organism can reach a limit where there is theoretically insufficient component space for the necessary processes that satisfy all experts as a criterion for being alive.
Natural intelligence at even the micrometer range can be ruled, unless one accepts that microtubules are capable of carrying out computations. They constitute the cytoskeletons of eukaryotes, whether unicellular or multicellular.
Quote:Nanoelectronic transistors are significantly smaller than biological cells, so any artificial beings that inherit an alien civilization after their creators go obsolete could be quite small if they need to be.
Even cells, could they be smaller? I'm thinking they're the size they are either because evolution won't risk smaller (too much other stuff going on) or it's physically impossible. What if a small tiny predatory organism could think its way around on Earth, we'd probably go extinct.
The smallest viruses can get to down 17nm in size, but of course it's controversial that they are alive since they lack metabolic structure. So-called nanobes and nanobacteria that approach that level have more or less been discredited as organisms.
In some respects, prokaryotes can get below 400 nanometers. For instance, there's a species of Mycoplasma bacteria that is only 100nm in diameter width-wise, but ten times that in length. But somewhere under those spans a non-artificial organism can reach a limit where there is theoretically insufficient component space for the necessary processes that satisfy all experts as a criterion for being alive.
Natural intelligence at even the micrometer range can be ruled, unless one accepts that microtubules are capable of carrying out computations. They constitute the cytoskeletons of eukaryotes, whether unicellular or multicellular.
Did you mean to say ruled out?
We use a certain amount of energy just thinking. According to this article, the brain needs about 300 of the 1300 calories humans need every day.
Excerpt:
Quote:While a brain takes up about twenty percent, or 300, of a resting body's 1300 calories a day, and while it has the potential to burn more, it's estimated that most actual thinking only changes the amount of calories that the brain burns by around twenty to fifty calories per day.
Is this energy used up moving information along neural pathways? Would quantum bits not need these pathways because of tunnelling property, burning less energy? Plants use quantum tunnelling during photosynthesis, do we use it to think? Wegs posted something to the affect of chess masters burning 2000 calories a day during competition and after reading this article I'm kind of doubting that much energy goes into actual thinking.
A quantum life form would be something. Maybe we are. On a universal scale, our brains are quite small.
Quantum effects in photosynthesis have been called into doubt in recent years or are considered a negligible contribution if the case. Quantum processing in microtubules is still resisted by the mainstream. One form of quantum computation in the brain still has legs, but that's at least partly due to it not having been significantly tested yet:
With far less cells than transistors in the most basic cpu the fly has a flight control system, visual pattern recognition and much more (including dance moves). As far as I know there is absolutely no explanation of how this is possible - we can't program a device equivalent to a fly brain because we can't build anything even close to the complexity of a fly brain. Could be quantum mechanics. Could be demonic forces at work. Given that fruit flies are mostly harmless maybe each contain a nanothing of fairy dust.
With far less cells than transistors in the most basic cpu the fly has a flight control system, visual pattern recognition and much more (including dance moves). As far as I know there is absolutely no explanation of how this is possible - we can't program a device equivalent to a fly brain because we can't build anything even close to the complexity of a fly brain. Could be quantum mechanics. Could be demonic forces at work. Given that fruit flies are mostly harmless maybe each contain a nanothing of fairy dust.
Nice post C2. I'll rule out fairy dust and demonic forces. I don't know how many times bigger than a fruit fly a golf ball is but imagine that same sort of complexity and more in an organism of that size. Makes me wonder what kind of environment would evolve a very small intelligent creature. What factors would be involved?
Why is it sci-fi depicts aliens with enormous heads supposedly housing huge brains, much bigger than ours? When and if we start exploring the cosmos looking for life there's a chance we will encounter it and perhaps not even know. Are we searching for intelligent aliens who are more or less like us physically/mentally? Maybe we're the anomaly . Now could the reverse be true..... aliens the size of 10 storey buildings no smarter than a fruit fly? How many calories a day would a brontosaurus have burned thinking?
Apr 18, 2020 09:59 PM
![[Image: QuantumBrain_2000.png]](https://d2r55xnwy6nx47.cloudfront.net/uploads/2016/11/QuantumBrain_2000.png)
. Now could the reverse be true..... aliens the size of 10 storey buildings no smarter than a fruit fly? How many calories a day would a brontosaurus have burned thinking?