But I don't want to believe in reincarnation

[C C]

Jane can assert that she is a continuation of the person she was 5 minutes ago because she remembers being that person, she retains those memories.

But the point is, she does not remember. A woman who specializes in brain function had a stroke and as she explained it, she was given a new life. Her memory was gone and she didn't remember who she was angry with, so she now had a chance of life without anger towards anyone. Fortunately for her, her very positive personality was in tact, but this is not so for all brain damaged people. Sometimes brain damage can so change a person's life, no one wants to have anything to do with them. They can go from gentle and refined people, to someone who cusses and is violent.

That's not a typical situation people find themselves in, but the contingent bad luck a percentage of us can have. If current Jane had a stroke slash memory loss, she would still have the two other relationships with past Jane which could impose identity linkage to the latter. She might avoid a degree of that by being in a part of the world where no one knows her and the government there doesn't have data about her. But that only shields her from the artificial human-society part of the environment. Not the the physical account of her life history and its effects stored in the structure and state of the overall world (kind of like how the geological / fossil record of Earth instantiates the existence of dinosaurs in the distant past, regardless of whether people know about those conditions or not).

The whole point of the comparison between John and Jane's situation was to illustrate how current Jane's identification with past Jane (an ordinary situation) was more solid (had more types of relationships between them) than John's potential extraordinary identification with Napolean. Even if Jane lost one of those relationships (the psychological), she would still have the other two trying to drag her back or conform her to the former person she was (like people still calling her "Jane"), depending upon where she was at.

Back to John- "There is no environmental evidence of him being Napolean". But that is exactly what the video has proven does exist. Did you watch the video? It is like archeology finding evidence of past lives. We are talking about people knowing things and having no explanation for why they would know these things, unless they were there in the past.

If that was applicable to John's claim of being Napolean reincarnated, then the environmental relationship could be added between them. But that doesn't mean that skeptics couldn't rip it apart the same as his stand-alone claim of having Napolean's memories. Again, my focus was on the grounds for even entertaining the idea that Napolean was reincarnated as John (what may be essential to the idea itself), and not the usually futile issues and impotence of "Is this a stage of evidence, is this a step up to validation, etc".

However, there is the research into memories being transmitted genetically. This could also explain why some people know of past lives.

Memories being genetically transmitted isn't traditional "reincarnation". University of Virginia professor Jim Tucker calls his fringe or pseudo stuff the "science of reincarnation". But it actually passes beyond the claims of genetic memory. It arguably is more in line with the transmigration of immaterial souls, etc -- and thus classifying it under a general label of "reincarnation" might indeed be warranted (as opposed to a casual declaration of something else only having a semblance to reincarnation).

"[He] hypothesizes that consciousness needs no physical binding at all to pass on. Tucker, who studies children who have memories of past lives, claims that quantum physics suggests that our physical world is created by our consciousness. Therefore, consciousness doesn’t need the world, let alone a brain, to exist, and could simply affix itself to a new brain once it passes out of a dying one." http://reset.me/story/science-proving-me...ancestors/

[Zinjanthropos]

There's a spiritualist on my wife's side of the family. When I had a benign tumor removed from my back 5 years ago, she told me that in one of my past lives I suffered severe trauma to that section of my former body and my soul which apparently was also injured at that time was being healed. The fact it was benign was an indication to her that I am probably not on the first past life since the wound but at least the third, spirit wounds heal slowly. She then spotted a birthmark I have on my inner elbow joint which was according to her, a past life injury that's nearly healed or was minor in comparison to the tumor. 

Interestingly, should one pursue it, this is a common belief and all you need to do is google it to find out about it.

Here's a casual thought: suppose quantum activity has very much to do with thought, consciousness, awareness, etc. . Now take some of the weirdness associated with that such as tunnelling, FTL speeds, two places at once, duality and entanglement. I not going to pretend I understand quantum physics but take entanglement for a second. Paired particles do not require time or distance to seemingly communicate with one another. Let's have some fun with that idea.....suppose my thoughts can traverse time and space. Imagine the thought I have right now triggering the same or very close to the same thought in the head of someone in a past, future or parallel universe. (Just having fun folks)

[Carol]

Everyone has avoided the Edgar Casey thread, but many times when someone requested healing he would give a past incarnation explanation for the problem. I totally agree this kind of stuff can be repulsive to scientifically educated people, as the feeling of disgust comes up for me when I read some of this stuff, but then I think of the 100 years it took to convince doctors that sanitation is important because disease and infections are spread by unseen germs. I think we have a problem when we are too sure of what we think we know. And a taboo on the subject sure as blazes prevents healing if there is truth to this reincarnation stuff because then we can not explore our possible reality and we can dispell the energy by talking about it. I most certainly would not recommend replacing today's medicine with unproven possibilities, but neither do I recommend denial of possibilities. It is better to wash our hands, in case germs are real, than to deny that possibility and risk infection.

Personally, I think we are in the Resurrection. Obviously, archeologist, geologist, and related sciences are resurrecting the past. Our mass population could be the resurrection of all souls? I think our part in the Ressurection is to learn all we can because the consciousness change can only come through us. You know- as in, God is asleep in rocks and minerals, waking in plants and animals, to know self in man.

What of our moral perspective if we assume reincarnation is the greater reality? I suppose we could use this perspective to justify social and economic injustice, but with today's science that is getting harder to do. Socrates believed our goal needs to be to know ourselves and to expand our consciousness to include others and the long term consequences of our deeds. Possibly a three generation perceptive when our failure to make the right choices could be a huge problem, as the result of slavery is now a serious problem for us. Including the whole of our history and our growing scientific knowledge of life in our world view, may have some benefits? For democracy, it means we come back to what we leave behind, and how would we behave politically if we considered we will come back to the conditions we make manifest?

[Zinjanthropos]

Personally I don't pay much attention to the metaphysical, paranormal, supernatural, incomprehensible, spiritual and the list goes on. I feel this way because we don't fully understand the physical world we are presented with every waking day. If there is nothing left to understand of the physical universe then I think that would be a good time to tackle the unexplainable, that's if there is anything. However it's a wait that will take many lifetimes if ever to be fulfilled.

[Carol]

I think science is exploring consciousness and that this research gives us possible explanations of what we have labeled paranormal or supernatural.  

To be very practical, we know our thoughts have a powerful effect on us.  How we think about ourselves and life will cause us to be blind to some things and attracted to other things.  Imaging comforting an imaginary animal can in fact, relieve our own feelings of fear and anxiety.  "God" and "a spiritual reality" maybe no more than figments of our imagination, but a belief the reality of these concepts can have a powerful effect on us, and even enable us to do the apparently impossible, while if we tell ourselves, "I can't do that" that is the reality we get.  Studies of consciousness are telling us, as we think it so it is.  We can open our lives to wonderful possibilities or completely block them from our awareness.  This makes the realness of God and spirituality reality, a mute point, because in a very practical way, what we think of God and spiritual reality does affect our lives.

[Zinjanthropos]

I think science is exploring consciousness and that this research gives us possible explanations of what we have labeled paranormal or supernatural.  

To be very practical, we know our thoughts have a powerful effect on us.  How we think about ourselves and life will cause us to be blind to some things and attracted to other things.  Imaging comforting an imaginary animal can in fact, relieve our own feelings of fear and anxiety.  "God" and "a spiritual reality" maybe no more than figments of our imagination, but a belief the reality of these concepts can have a powerful effect on us, and even enable us to do the apparently impossible, while if we tell ourselves, "I can't do that" that is the reality we get.  Studies of consciousness are telling us, as we think it so it is.  We can open our lives to wonderful possibilities or completely block them from our awareness.  This makes the realness of God and spirituality reality, a mute point, because in a very practical way, what we think of God and spiritual reality does affect our lives.

Couple of casual thoughts.....If everything turns out to be related to the physical world then what will this era be known as, assuming we get that far? If everything turns out to be explainable naturally then where does humanity go from there?

[Carol]

I think science is exploring consciousness and that this research gives us possible explanations of what we have labeled paranormal or supernatural.  

To be very practical, we know our thoughts have a powerful effect on us.  How we think about ourselves and life will cause us to be blind to some things and attracted to other things.  Imaging comforting an imaginary animal can in fact, relieve our own feelings of fear and anxiety.  "God" and "a spiritual reality" maybe no more than figments of our imagination, but a belief the reality of these concepts can have a powerful effect on us, and even enable us to do the apparently impossible, while if we tell ourselves, "I can't do that" that is the reality we get.  Studies of consciousness are telling us, as we think it so it is.  We can open our lives to wonderful possibilities or completely block them from our awareness.  This makes the realness of God and spirituality reality, a mute point, because in a very practical way, what we think of God and spiritual reality does affect our lives.

Couple of casual thoughts.....If everything turns out to be related to the physical world then what will this era be known as, assuming we get that far? If everything turns out to be explainable naturally then where does humanity go from there?

The subject always reminds me of a Star Trek show where people got whatever they thought of, and one of the crew appeared to be killed and removed from the playing field.  It turned on this planet, people's thoughts were made manifest, but the killing doesn't actually happen.   Our lives are created by what we think, but....

It is very obvious our childhoods determine how we think and behave.   Those who have good lives and good parenting are much more apt to do well in life than a kid raised by a single drug-addicted mother, in a neighborhood where being tough and brutal is the best way to have social status, or raised in foster homes and dumped on the streets at age 18 with no family to fall back on.  I think a real social justice system takes this into consideration, and our first investment needs to be for the child's security and education, to increase the chances this child will be a contributing member of society, who actualizes his/her potential, instead of perpetuating drugs, crime, and dependency on welfare.   Now let us look at the possibility of reincarnation.

How might we progress if our lives are brutal because humans have not evolved beyond this?  Would civilizations with abundance be more capable of advancing civilization and human potential?  What advancements are needed to achieve our human potential, and what might set us back?

[Zinjanthropos]

What advancements are needed to achieve our human potential, and what might set us back?

What are we? 100,000 maybe 1 million years on the planet. Our species is in its infancy. Long way to go to challenge the dinosaurs' reign. What we need is more time. The biggest advancement will be made once the countries that suppress women loosen that noose. When half your brain power is stifled, advancement is at half speed. 

I'll never understand that thinking.  Besides the obvious physical differences between the sexes, men generally being bigger and stronger & women with the birth machinery, it's that thing above the neckline that separates us from all the creatures that exist today or in the past.

[Carol]

I think the research being done on the brain and consciousness may dramatically change our perception of reality in the near future. Quantum physics is part of the consciousness change. However, already we are experiencing a dramatic change in our consciousness because of our abundance and changed social roles and technology.

Today's world is very different from when women were socially, educationally, and economically restricted. Today's women are experiencing a power and liberty they have not had for thousands of years. And long-lived people are surely changing our consciousness.

I think we need to work on our understanding of math, so more of our decisions are based on math and people in general are more capable of using the logic of math for decision making. This would be a huge improvement over the emotional and reactionary politics we have today. It is way different from the thought process of the past.

---

Jane can assert that she is a continuation of the person she was 5 minutes ago because she remembers being that person, she retains those memories.

But the point is, she does not remember.  A woman who specializes in brain function had a stroke and as she explained it, she was given a new life.  Her memory was gone and she didn't remember who she was angry with, so she now had a chance of life without anger towards anyone.   Fortunately for her, her very positive personality was in tact, but this is not so for all brain damaged people.   Sometimes brain damage can so change a person's life, no one wants to have anything to do with them.  They can go from gentle and refined people, to someone who cusses and is violent.  

That's not a typical situation people find themselves in, but the contingent bad luck a percentage of us can have. If current Jane had a stroke slash memory loss, she would still have the two other relationships with past Jane which could impose identity linkage to the latter. She might avoid a degree of that by being in a part of the world where no one knows her and the government there doesn't have data about her. But that only shields her from the artificial human-society part of the environment. Not the the physical account of her life history and its effects stored in the structure and state of the overall world (kind of like how the geological / fossil record of Earth instantiates the existence of dinosaurs in the distant past, regardless of whether people know about those conditions or not).

The whole point of the comparison between John and Jane's situation was to illustrate how current Jane's identification with past Jane (an ordinary situation) was more solid (had more types of relationships between them) than John's potential extraordinary identification with Napolean. Even if Jane lost one of those relationships (the psychological), she would still have the other two trying to drag her back or conform her to the former person she was (like people still calling her "Jane"), depending upon where she was at.

Back to John- "There is no environmental evidence of him being Napolean". But that is exactly what the video has proven does exist. Did you watch the video? It is like archeology finding evidence of past lives. We are talking about people knowing things and having no explanation for why they would know these things, unless they were there in the past.

If that was applicable to John's claim of being Napolean reincarnated, then the environmental relationship could be added between them. But that doesn't mean that skeptics couldn't rip it apart the same as his stand-alone claim of having Napolean's memories. Again, my focus was on the grounds for even entertaining the idea that Napolean was reincarnated as John (what may be essential to the idea itself), and not the usually futile issues and impotence of "Is this a stage of evidence, is this a step up to validation, etc".

However, there is the research into memories being transmitted genetically. This could also explain why some people know of past lives.

Memories being genetically transmitted isn't traditional "reincarnation". University of Virginia professor Jim Tucker calls his fringe or pseudo stuff the "science of reincarnation". But it actually passes beyond the claims of genetic memory. It arguably is more in line with the transmigration of immaterial souls, etc -- and thus classifying it under a general label of "reincarnation" might indeed be warranted (as opposed to a casual declaration of something else only having a semblance to reincarnation).

"[He] hypothesizes that consciousness needs no physical binding at all to pass on. Tucker, who studies children who have memories of past lives, claims that quantum physics suggests that our physical world is created by our consciousness. Therefore, consciousness doesn’t need the world, let alone a brain, to exist, and could simply affix itself to a new brain once it passes out of a dying one." http://reset.me/story/science-proving-me...ancestors/

The link I posted in a new thread about how the brain works, uses a man and his wife to explain a little about memory.  The man does not have a functioning memory because a disease destroyed his ability to remember things, however, he can play the piano very well because this memory is different from the memory of who we are.

As for genetic memory and reincarnation,  I don't think it would be the tradition understanding of reincarnation because it is not a soul manifesting into a new body, but only a memory, along the line of the man who lost his memory, but not his ability to play the piano.  So the great grandson of a man who was a type setter when the page was checked in a mirror, may have the ability to read backward.  The memory being transmitted in a gene made manifest in a new physical body, but this is not the soul of the great grandfather.  Birds that inherit their song, are not inheriting the soul of previous birds, but only the learned song.  

We are still struggling to understand memory and perhaps when we better understand memory, we will have new ideas about reincarnation.  Or our studies of quantum physics and consciousness could lead to new ideas about reincarnation.

[Syne]

I think we need to work on our understanding of math, so more of our decisions are based on math and people in general are more capable of using the logic of math for decision making.  This would be a huge improvement over the emotional and reactionary politics we have today.  It is way different from the thought process of the past.

Yet where anyone challenges you to use reason and logic, you resort to emotion. Be the change you wish to see.