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What quantum theory says about the state of unobserved reality

#11
Kornee Offline
(Jan 10, 2023 02:27 AM)confused2 Wrote: So it looks like the laws of physics (any and all) are independent of the/an observer. The mystery becomes - how can you hook an observer into the loop in an even a half convincing way?

As a 'for instance' .. a quantum computer can have all possible lottery numbers but stands no chance of winning the lottery unless it pays $1 and submits the ticket.
Some think the measurement problem has been solved. Others think not. Almost all now agree measurement does not require sentient observers. Just interactions involving entanglement making and breaking.

However, the double slit experiment, where addition of a detector(s) placed at one or both slits so as to *potentially* record which-way information, thus eliminating the otherwise usual interference pattern, is a very interesting aspect of the general measurement issue. Notice I wrote potentially. It's not needed for an actual measurement to be made! The mere presence washes out interference. AFAIK nobody can explain just why.
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#13
Kornee Offline
(Jan 10, 2023 03:29 AM)confused2 Wrote:
Kornee Wrote:However, the double slit experiment, where addition of a d etector(s) placed at one or both slits so as to *potentially* record ..
.. the delayed choice quantum eraser?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed-ch...tum_eraser .. my bedtime but looking forward to discussion.
A nice article that covers about all bases. I guess the connection to the simpler double slit with or without detector(s) is along the lines of each quantum particle (need not be photons) interacts with all the apparatus but only yields one final result.
Feynmanesque (my newly minted virtually copyrighted word) path integral pov.
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#14
C C Offline
(Jan 9, 2023 09:35 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: [...] So right now, is it true there’s only one universe? Unobserved reality?

The "world" of scientific realism is and will continue to be as weird as current and future physics make it (i.e., that's an evolving story). The latter is never going to be the reality that our brains depict us as environmentally occupying (i.e., classic phenomenal substances cognitively discriminated into ground, trees, rocks, etc -- instead of, say, particle excitations occurring in 24 quantum fields).

All the brain cares about is producing a representation according to its own evolutionary carved and installed guidelines, that serves practical purposes of survival.

The "cat" in the non-represented "world" can be in as many different states simultaneously or be co-existing in as many parallel universes as the eggheads of today or tomorrow want it to be. Just as long as the brain gets to depict its single cat abiding in a definite context. 

Where brains don't exist at all -- like the past of billions of years ago or on Pluto, there obviously are no representations of non-represented existence. Just like when a person dies, the manifestations of sight, hearing, feeling, etc cease. There's not even blankness, since that would still be a manifestation and psychological conception of a state, an appearance.[1]

Accordingly, the non-represented world exists in its usual manner under those circumstances, that is devoid of the manifestations of mind. IOW, physicists can populate that non-conscious version of the world with "invisible" abstract cats that are both dead and alive or countless "invisible" universes or whatever roads their mathematical dictates and whims take them down.

Erwin Schrödinger: The [phenomenal] world is a construct of our sensations, perceptions, memories. It is convenient to regard it as existing objectively on its own. But it certainly does not become manifest by its mere existence. Its becoming manifest is conditional on very special goings-on in very special parts of this very world, namely on certain events that happen in a brain. That is an inordinately peculiar kind of implication, which prompts the question: What particular properties distinguish these brain processes and enable them to produce the manifestation? Can we guess which material processes have this power, which not? Or simple: What kind of material process is directly associated with consciousness? --"What is Life? Mind and Matter"

- - - footnote - - -

[1] Let's not splinter off into afterlife speculations, Ernst Mach's panphenomenalism, idealism, etc -- since we know very well that either contemporary science or materialist philosophy doesn't brook such.
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#15
confused2 Offline
(Jan 10, 2023 03:55 AM)Kornee Wrote:
(Jan 10, 2023 03:29 AM)confused2 Wrote:
Kornee Wrote:However, the double slit experiment, where addition of a d etector(s) placed at one or both slits so as to *potentially* record ..
.. the delayed choice quantum eraser?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed-ch...tum_eraser .. my bedtime but looking forward to discussion.
A nice article that covers about all bases. I guess the connection to the simpler double slit with or without detector(s) is along the lines of each quantum particle (need not be photons) interacts with all the apparatus but only yields one final result.
Feynmanesque (my newly minted virtually copyrighted word) path integral pov.

I have seen it suggested that all is not quite as it appears in this experiment. The wiki writer has kindly supplied what would be seen if the experiment worked as described - there remains a possibility that it doesn't. I have to finish a bathroom for christmas so I can't spend much time on this and I have no memory of where the cautionary text might be found .. but.. like everything .. buyer beware.
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#16
Zinjanthropos Online
From the armchair…..Keeping it simple….Way I figure it is there are 3 parts to observation…..something detectable, a detectable action of something, and life to interpret in varying degrees that which has been detected.

The first part absolutely has to be there for obvious reasons. Secondly things have to occur with something and leave evidence. Still none of it matters until life comes along and I’m not singling out humans since even the amoeba can detect food. Maybe technology could be the 4th part…..idk

What I find strange is the photon itself. I’ve read that since it has no electrical charge, they don’t collide but simply pass thru one another. IOW …The very thing we detect (photons) appear to not detect each other’s presence.
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#17
confused2 Offline
Detection may involve life .. "I see'd a ship,ma." .. my personal definition just involves an irreversible process. When a photon hits a molecule of (say) silver bromide it breaks the molecule down into silver and (probably) bromine in a way that isn't easily reversible - a picture gets stored on the film as a pattern of silver - the photons are 'detected'. If the detection destroys the photon - no getting away from that.
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#18
Kornee Offline
(Jan 10, 2023 01:08 PM)confused2 Wrote: I have seen it suggested that all is not quite as it appears in this experiment. The wiki writer has kindly supplied what would be seen if the experiment worked as described - there remains a possibility that it doesn't. I have to finish a bathroom for christmas so I can't spend much time on this and I have no memory of where the cautionary text might be found .. but.. like everything .. buyer beware.
You are thinking of retrocausality angle? The Wikipedia article spends some time on the pros and cons of retrocausality interpretation of delayed choice quantum erasure.
Coming down on the side of a consensus opinion there is none. I have no firm conviction either way. Bell state correlations are indifferent to time ordering of Alice or Bob making the first measurement(s).
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#19
confused2 Offline
(Jan 11, 2023 02:39 AM)Kornee Wrote:
(Jan 10, 2023 01:08 PM)confused2 Wrote: I have seen it suggested that all is not quite as it appears in this experiment. The wiki writer has kindly supplied what would be seen if the experiment worked as described - there remains a possibility that it doesn't. I have to finish a bathroom for christmas so I can't spend much time on this and I have no memory of where the cautionary text might be found .. but.. like everything .. buyer beware.
You are thinking of retrocausality angle? The Wikipedia article spends some time on the pros and cons of retrocausality interpretation of delayed choice quantum erasure.
Coming down on the side of a consensus opinion there is none. I have no firm conviction either way. Bell state correlations are indifferent to time ordering of Alice or Bob making the first measurement(s).
No. Much worse. Possible misdirection - what is fed to the coincidence detector may not justify the conclusion ppl are intended to reach. I last looked at this some years ago .. then saw the cautionary text and thought it made sense. Currently I have no analysis so I'm not really on either side. Although not recent this experiment doesn't seem to have been duplicated many times by others and .. I'm slightly suspicious of it.
Edit.. That isn't to say the effect isn't real - only that others aren't convinced this experiment demonstrates the effect beyond reasonable doubt.
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#20
Kornee Offline
(Jan 11, 2023 02:54 AM)confused2 Wrote: No. Much worse. Possible misdirection - what is fed to the coincidence detector may not justify the conclusion ppl are intended to reach. I last looked at this some years ago .. then saw the cautionary text and thought it made sense. Currently I have no analysis so I'm not really on either side. Although not recent this experiment doesn't seem to have been duplicated many times by others and .. I'm slightly suspicious of it.
Dug this up hiding away in a long forgotten folder: https://algassert.com/post/1720
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