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Thai Warship Sinks

#1
Yazata Offline
The US made HTMS Sukothai was one of the newest ships in Thailand's navy.

Apparently waves and high winds knocked out electrical power, which knocked out propulsion and control, and the ship capsized. (At least that's what's being described, it shouldn't happen though.)

Other Thai ships were dispatched to the stricken ship's aid, but only one, the HTMS Kraburi, arrived in time to assist. 

Reports are that the Sukothai had 106 sailors aboard, 78 were said to be rescued by the Kraburi. 28 were still in the water at the time of the official statement and in what the translation called "critical condition", which apparently means serious danger.

https://news.usni.org/2022/12/18/royal-t...f-thailand

https://twitter.com/prroyalthainavy/stat...9568388096

Video from the Sukothai which is on its side with the Kraburi coming alongside

https://twitter.com/prroyalthainavy/stat...3411347456

(Royal Thai navy photos)


[Image: FkR4WvPXoAEOt29?format=jpg&name=medium]
[Image: FkR4WvPXoAEOt29?format=jpg&name=medium]



Sailors being rescued


[Image: FkTHXjQaAAE3atq?format=jpg&name=900x900]
[Image: FkTHXjQaAAE3atq?format=jpg&name=900x900]

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#2
Zinjanthropos Offline
Is it possible for a warship to completely batten down the hatches? Are there just too many ways for water to get in, knock out power, cause boat to list? Do gun turrets leak for example? Stairways to below deck can’t be closed?

Was a commander in dereliction of duty for not securing the boat? . Sounds like a simple order to give, then again if you’re having sex while steering the Costa Concordia things can go wrong.

Shoddy workmanship? My old neighbor worked at local dry dock building/repairing big ships that plied the Great Lakes and oceans. Trouble is I rarely saw him sober, alcohol & drugs, and he was a welder of hull panels. Is US providing poorly constructed, cheaply made warships to countries for profit?
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#3
C C Offline
(Dec 19, 2022 07:54 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: Is it possible for a warship to completely batten down the hatches? Are there just too many ways for water to get in, knock out power, cause boat to list? Do gun turrets leak for example? Stairways to below deck can’t be closed? 

Was a commander in dereliction of duty for not securing the boat? . Sounds like a simple order to give, then again if you’re having sex while steering the Costa Concordia things can go wrong.

Shoddy workmanship? My old neighbor worked at local dry dock building/repairing big ships that plied the Great Lakes and oceans. Trouble is I rarely saw him sober, alcohol & drugs, and he was a welder of hull panels. Is US providing poorly constructed, cheaply made warships to countries for profit?

Lot of rogue waves this year and those prior (one detected off the coast of Canada in 2020 was the highest ever at 58 feet). Ships arguably aren't designed for rare events of that magnitude. IF their stability these days is dependent upon management by computer systems, the Thai ship lost electrical power beforehand. (No battery back-up, or damaged wiring severed connection to that, too?)

I guess the Thai ship incident really is just weather-caused, rather than a China submarine covertly testing a new weapon for the Taiwan battle later in the decade.

Deadly 'rogue wave' smashes into cruise ship near Antarctica — but where did it come from?
https://www.livescience.com/rogue-wave-hits-cruise-ship

"On the night of Nov. 29, an unusually massive wave hit the cruise ship Viking Polaris [...] On Dec. 2, a passenger onboard another cruise ship in the Drake Passage shared a video of another massive, but less destructive, wave on Twitter."

Scientists thought these monster waves were myth. Now they’re racing to understand them
https://www.smh.com.au/national/scientis...5asla.html
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#4
Zinjanthropos Offline
(Dec 19, 2022 08:14 PM)C C Wrote:
(Dec 19, 2022 07:54 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: Is it possible for a warship to completely batten down the hatches? Are there just too many ways for water to get in, knock out power, cause boat to list? Do gun turrets leak for example? Stairways to below deck can’t be closed? 

Was a commander in dereliction of duty for not securing the boat? . Sounds like a simple order to give, then again if you’re having sex while steering the Costa Concordia things can go wrong.

Shoddy workmanship? My old neighbor worked at local dry dock building/repairing big ships that plied the Great Lakes and oceans. Trouble is I rarely saw him sober, alcohol & drugs, and he was a welder of hull panels. Is US providing poorly constructed, cheaply made warships to countries for profit?

Lot of rogue waves this year and those prior (one detected off the coast of Canada in 2020 was the highest ever at 58 feet). Ships arguably aren't designed for rare events of that magnitude. IF their stability these days is dependent upon management by computer systems, the Thai ship lost electrical power beforehand. (No battery back-up, or damaged wiring severed connection to that, too?)

I guess the Thai ship incident really is just weather-caused, rather than a China submarine covertly testing a new weapon for the Taiwan battle later in the decade.

Deadly 'rogue wave' smashes into cruise ship near Antarctica — but where did it come from?
https://www.livescience.com/rogue-wave-hits-cruise-ship

"On the night of Nov. 29, an unusually massive wave hit the cruise ship Viking Polaris [...] On Dec. 2, a passenger onboard another cruise ship in the Drake Passage shared a video of another massive, but less destructive, wave on Twitter."

Scientists thought these monster waves were myth. Now they’re racing to understand them
https://www.smh.com.au/national/scientis...5asla.html

Looking at the one pic of the ship severely listing. It appears as if the deck turret has suffered damage and may even have moved from its mount. Seen vids where gun turrets fall free from their mounts when ships overturn. Are gun turrets that easily moved and would it allow for inflow of water to below decks? Could a rogue wave dislodge a gun turret?

You would think shipbuilders are aware of rogue waves and have incorporated design features to deal with them. Also if the ship was powerless prior to rogue wave then at least certain safety measures need to be implemented immediately. Like aircraft there must be a designed set of instructions on how to deal with problems as they occur and what safety measures are needed. The captain here may be in hot water unless he went down with the ship.
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#5
C C Offline
(Dec 19, 2022 08:42 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: Looking at the one pic of the ship severely listing. It appears as if the deck turret has suffered damage and may even have moved from its mount. Seen vids where gun turrets fall free from their mounts when ships overturn. Are gun turrets that easily moved and would it allow for inflow of water to below decks? Could a rogue wave dislodge a gun turret?

Tony DiGiulian: Many years ago, I read an article that said that if USS Iowa (BB-61) capsized, she was designed such that her main battery turrets would fall out and the loss of this top weight would then allow the ship to right itself. I was quite impressed with this statement, so much so that a long time later, about 1998, I mentioned it on one of the old NavWeaps forums. Much more knowledgeable people, such as Dick Landgraff and Stuart Slade, "politely" laughed at my naiveté and told me "no, they do not!" Basically, they informed me that not only do the turrets not fall out, but that the water flowing into the ship after it capsized would prevent her from righting herself even if the turrets did fall out.

Since that time, I have seen the "turrets fall out" statement in many different articles about battleships. This is apparently inspired by the discovery of the Bismarck wreck in 1989 by Dr. Ballard where the turrets have indeed fallen out of the ship and lay scattered in the debris field. However, this ignores many other warship wrecks that still retain their turrets within the ship, even though they capsized while sinking. In the case of the Japanese battleship Nagato, as can be seen in the adjacent photograph, her "A" and "Y" turrets have been suspended over the sea bottom for more than 75 years and still have not yet fallen out of the ship. Similarly, the floor and stalk of "A" turret on HMS Hood remain in place, although the turret walls, roof and guns were torn away during the sinking.
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-118.php 

Quote:You would think shipbuilders are aware of rogue waves and have incorporated design features to deal with them. Also if the ship was powerless prior to rogue wave then at least certain safety measures need to be implemented immediately. Like aircraft there must be a designed set of instructions on how to deal with problems as they occur and what safety measures are needed. The captain here may be in hot water unless he went down with the ship.

Very large rogue waves (apparently that 58-footer mentioned previously wasn't remotely the highest ever recorded) are sort of like a jet plane being hit by a small asteroid. It's all over when it happens. The Edmond Fitzgerald was in a storm rather than half-calm waters, so on those occasions it does provoke a need for heightened awareness and response (albeit possibly futile). But often a rogue wave "attacks" abruptly from out of nowhere.

Circa the last 25 years or so the science community has come to accept that rogue waves aren't rare as once thought. But in terms of one actually hitting a ship, the risk is apparently still low enough to not be worth the super-exorbitant costs of extra engineering measures that might be worthless, anyway.

This is not to say that a rogue wave was indeed responsible for what happened to the Thai ship, but it may have been storm-related circumstances of equivalent power or mischief.

"Rogue waves present considerable danger for several reasons; they are rare, unpredictable, may appear suddenly or without warning, and can impact with tremendous force. A 12 m (39 ft) wave in the usual "linear" model would have a breaking force of 6 metric tons per square metre [t/m2] (8.5 psi). Although modern ships are designed to (typically) tolerate a breaking wave of 15 t/m2, a rogue wave can dwarf both of these figures with a breaking force far exceeding 100 t/m2.

[...] Rogue waves may also occur in lakes. A phenomenon known as the 'Three Sisters' is said to occur in Lake Superior when a series of three large waves forms. The second wave hits the ship's deck before the first wave clears. The third incoming wave adds to the two accumulated backwashes and suddenly overloads the ship deck with tons of water. The phenomenon is one of various theorized causes of the sinking of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald on Lake Superior in November 1975.

[...] In 1826, French scientist and naval officer Captain Jules Dumont d'Urville reported waves as high as 33 m (108 ft) in the Indian Ocean with three colleagues as witnesses, yet he was publicly ridiculed by fellow scientist François Arago. In that era, the thought was widely held that no wave could exceed 9 m (30 ft). Author Susan Casey wrote that much of that disbelief came because there were very few people who had seen a rogue wave and survived; until the advent of steel double-hulled ships of the 20th century "people who encountered 100-foot [30 m] rogue waves generally weren't coming back to tell people about it."

[...] Since the 19th century, oceanographers, meteorologists, engineers, and ship designers have used a statistical model known as the Gaussian function (or Gaussian Sea or standard linear model) to predict wave height, on the assumption that wave heights in any given sea are tightly grouped around a central value equal to the average of the largest third, known as the significant wave height (SWH). In a storm sea with an SWH of 12 m (39 ft), the model suggests hardly ever would a wave higher than 15 m (49 ft) occur. It suggests one of 30 m (98 ft) could indeed happen, but only once in 10,000 years. This basic assumption was well accepted, though acknowledged to be an approximation. The use of a Gaussian form to model waves had been the sole basis of virtually every text on that topic for the past 100 years. 

[...] Rogue waves are now accepted as a common phenomenon. Professor Akhmediev of the Australian National University has stated that 10 rogue waves exist in the world's oceans at any moment. Some researchers have speculated that roughly three of every 10,000 waves on the oceans achieve rogue status, yet in certain spots – such as coastal inlets and river mouths – these extreme waves can make up three of every 1,000 waves, because wave energy can be focused.

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#6
confused2 Offline
My guess is that the ship relied on active stabilisation in storm conditions - when it lost power it lost the stabilisers and heeled over to an irrecoverable angle.
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#7
Yazata Offline
Latest report seems to be that of the 106 crew on board, 81 have been rescued, one body recovered and 21 still missing. My guess is that they are all deceased, some may still be inside the ship, but SAR efforts are ongoing with many ships and aircraft, military and civilian, taking part.

https://www.fleetmon.com/maritime-news/2...gulf-siam/
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