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The Wave/Particle Paradox - Printable Version +- Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum (https://www.scivillage.com) +-- Forum: Science (https://www.scivillage.com/forum-61.html) +--- Forum: Chemistry, Physics & Mathematics (https://www.scivillage.com/forum-77.html) +--- Thread: The Wave/Particle Paradox (/thread-6273.html) |
The Wave/Particle Paradox - Secular Sanity - Oct 11, 2018 It was only a temporary ban. Here was my answer at that shit hole. I much prefer Stryder’s freedom of speech style and for obvious reasons. Bwahaha! Postulates of special relativity: 1. The laws of physics are the same in all inertial reference frames. 2. The speed of light in vacuum is the same in all inertial reference frames. It’s relative to the stationary observer. If light was at rest it would violate the second postulate of SR. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postul...ial_relativity Here’s the thing, though. If we simply think of our perception of light traveling at c, it doesn’t violate the second postulate, does it? We’re the stationary observer, right? Here’s a partial transcript from this video... So, here’s my big ->What if? What if it’s simpler than that? What if special relativity could account for the wave/particle duality? Isn’t the collapse of a wave function instantaneous? Isn’t the photoelectric effect nearly instantaneous? What if that’s Einstein’s hidden variables? What if what we’re observing is time dilation and the Lorentz contraction of light itself? Is that way too naive, C2?
RE: The Wave/Particle Paradox - confused2 - Oct 12, 2018 SS Wrote:Is that way too naive, C2?Yes it is way too naive. <- I'm channeling rp here. The speed of light is an effect of spacetime not a cause - the geometry of spacetime would be the same even if we had no eyes and/or no light. Muons - must do muons but need to sleep. I'll be back! RE: The Wave/Particle Paradox - Secular Sanity - Oct 12, 2018 (Oct 12, 2018 02:14 AM)confused2 Wrote:SS Wrote:Is that way too naive, C2?Yes it is way too naive. <- I'm channeling rp here. The speed of light is an effect of spacetime not a cause - the geometry of spacetime would be the same even if we had no eyes and/or no light. I know that but I'm not saying that an observer changes anything. I’m not saying that anything changes except for our descriptions. Take the muon for example, we know that these effects apply to it because it would never even make the journey. It would decay. The photon, however, is actually traveling at c. The same effect must apply to it, as well, because it never ages at all, right? RE: The Wave/Particle Paradox - Zinjanthropos - Oct 12, 2018 Quote:It was only a temporary ban. Here was my answer at that shit hole. I much prefer Stryder’s freedom of speech style and for obvious reasons.I'm still chuckling. You're out of jail. Glory! You may have got me laughing inside but the question posted there (physics) this a.m. had me roaring out loud. Has anyone ever been suspended just for the question? Anyways, life goes on. Sorry to interrupt. RE: The Wave/Particle Paradox - Secular Sanity - Oct 12, 2018 (Oct 12, 2018 01:20 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: I'm still chuckling. You're out of jail. Glory! http://reddittt.com/r/Thighsexual/ Yeah, I don't get it. Some troll meme, I suppose. An inside joke, perhaps? Hmm...maybe that's it. It's an inside joke. Get it?
RE: The Wave/Particle Paradox - Zinjanthropos - Oct 12, 2018 (Oct 12, 2018 02:34 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote:(Oct 12, 2018 01:20 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: I'm still chuckling. You're out of jail. Glory! The Internet is an interesting thing for sure. Should be a category for questions one is afraid to pose because it reveal a serious lack of knowledge. That's what instantaneous does for me. Anyways I have wondered about it for a long time but difficult for me to put into words. I always picture a scenario where everything moves at c. In this situation I can't figure out if there's a place to go. I mean a photon can go from A to B instantly but if B is another photon then how in hell does it catch up? Then I thought that no object at c will ever overtake or contact another moving at c. But then I read photons do collide. So if a photon deflects off another then it had to do it instantly and if that same photon then hits your eye, can there be two (or more) instantly's for a single photon? When I reread what I just typed then I understand why I never asked on an open forum before ![]() Edit: IOW's.... until the photon hits your eye there's no accounting for how many instants it can have. I mean it's instantly moving from one place to another without time being a factor? In fact to me it seems it can simply be in many places at once instantly, as long as it moves. I guess that would be from a photon's frame of reference? So when I catch the photon I'm only going to see it from it's last rendezvous with whatever someplace. The photon, as long as it isn't absorbed, can be in a lot of places at once it seems? Instant just seems so wrong to me but what do I know? A photon inside the Sun may take thousands of years to reach the surface. I would think c can be slowed but regardless, it's still a photon traveling at c no matter if slowed. Just how many instantaneous trips would a photon take on its way to Sun surface, considering it's a little turbulent and perhaps it smacks into something on the way out once in a while. RE: The Wave/Particle Paradox - Syne - Oct 12, 2018 Saying photons don't experience time, i.e. move instantly, ignores the fact that photons have no proper frame of reference. We might think that a photon moving instantly only violates SR by exceeding c and moving at an infinite speed, but it's even worse than that. Since speed is d/t, making either distance or time zero is meaningless. 0/t = 0 speed and d/0 = undefined (not infinity). RE: The Wave/Particle Paradox - confused2 - Oct 12, 2018 Special Relativity (SR) is a theory about the geometry of space and time. SR says nothing about quantum mechanics - Einstein wanted it to but had to admit defeat - or at least it is generally accepted he was defeated (wrong). The c (usually called 'the speed of light') is a constant in the geometry of spacetime. By chance a large number of photons (under the right conditions) will often seem (statistically) to move from source to destination at 'the speed of light'. Precisely how a photon gets from source to destination is a can of worms (Quantum Mechanics) - described by Feynman as "Shut up and calculate.". In the very simplest analysis photons exhibit a frequency (red light,blue light, radio waves, ultraviolet, gamma and so on) also a wavelength - so they are certainly not frozen while travelling 'at the speed of light'. When to use special relativity and when to use quantum mechanics is a matter of choosing the right horse for the course. RE: The Wave/Particle Paradox - Syne - Oct 12, 2018 (Oct 12, 2018 02:14 AM)confused2 Wrote: The speed of light is an effect of spacetime not a cause - the geometry of spacetime would be the same even if we had no eyes and/or no light.That is not an either/or situation. The speed of light is not an effect of spacetime, nor is it the cause. c is just the causality that orders events, which has consequences for space, time, and light equally. Space and time contract and dilate to accommodate causality, not vice versa. (Oct 12, 2018 10:13 PM)confused2 Wrote: The c (usually called 'the speed of light') is a constant in the geometry of spacetime. By chance a large number of photons (under the right conditions) will often seem (statistically) to move from source to destination at 'the speed of light'.No, since spacetime, itself, can expand faster than the speed of light, c cannot be dependent on spacetime geometry. Nor is the speed of photons just some statistical reality. Causality is fundamental, and your change in velocity actually alters the space and time in your frame relative to another...all while light moves at its invariant speed. RE: The Wave/Particle Paradox - confused2 - Oct 13, 2018 Syne Wrote:c is just the causality that orders events, which has consequences for space, time, and light equally. Space and time contract and dilate to accommodate causality, not vice versa. The muon thread https://www.scivillage.com/thread-6274-post-24042.html#pid24042 was created to address (some of) these points. There are examples in quantum mechanics (entanglement and just about everything else) that work with no regard to 'causality' and the speed of light. It is my 'view' that (as far as SR is concerned) causality will follow from the geometry. I agree that when designing a universe you might (possibly) start with causality and end up with the geometry - this is a rather deeper argument than I am equipped to deal with. I just play 'em as I see 'em. Syne Wrote:No, since spacetime, itself, can expand faster than the speed of light,This is beyond the scope of a thread that asks about SR and flat space. Since GR is derived from SR I would guess the geometry still works at a local level but will fail outside its domain of applicability. |