Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum
"Neat way for the Catholic to respond to Wycliffe" - Printable Version

+- Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum (https://www.scivillage.com)
+-- Forum: Culture (https://www.scivillage.com/forum-49.html)
+--- Forum: Religions & Spirituality (https://www.scivillage.com/forum-124.html)
+--- Thread: "Neat way for the Catholic to respond to Wycliffe" (/thread-420.html)



"Neat way for the Catholic to respond to Wycliffe" - C C - Dec 27, 2014

link--> Eternalism and accidents without a subject

ALEXANDER PRUSS: "A classic objection to transubstatiation, famously pressed by Wycliffe, is that according to the Catholic understanding of the doctrine, the accidents of bread and wine persist even though the substance of bread and wine no longer exists. But in Aristotelian metaphysics, accidents are essentially dependent on their substance.

"Eternalism—the view that past and future and present things all exist—provides a neat way for the Catholic to respond to Wycliffe. One can, if one so wishes, hold on to the idea that it is metaphysically necessary that a subject exists if an accident exists. But one denies that it is metaphysically necessary that the subject exists at the same time as the accident. The eternalist then holds that even if the bread and wine have perished at a time t1 after transubstantation, nonetheless it is true at t1 that the bread and wine exist, where the 'exist' is tenseless. On this view, every accident has a subject in the same world but not always at the same time."


- - - - -

link--> Are parts modes?

EXCERPT: There are two variations on Aristotelian ontology. On the sparser version there are substances and their modes (accidents and essences). On the more bloated version there are substances, modes and (proper) parts. I want to argue that the more bloated version should be reduced to the sparser one.

Parts in an Aristotelian ontology are unlike the parts of typical contemporary ontologies. They are not substances, but rather they are objects that depend on the substance they are parts of. At least normally when a part, say a finger, comes to be detached from the substance it is a part of, it ceases to exist—a detached finger is a finger in name only, as Aristotle insists.

This makes the parts of Aristotelian ontology mode-like in their dependence on the whole....

- - - - -

link--> Being is grounded in fundamental being, and presentism

EXCERPT: Assume a bloated ontology, on which there are events, chairs, holes, waves, etc. In defending such a bloated ontology, we should sensibly say that these beings are grounded in what the fundamental beings are and how they are, and so the bloat does not infect fundamental reality.

So far so good. But what if we add presentism into the mix?...


RE: "Neat way for the Catholic to respond to Wycliffe" - Magical Realist - Dec 30, 2014

(Dec 27, 2014 03:48 AM)C C Wrote: link--> Eternalism and accidents without a subject

ALEXANDER PRUSS: "A classic objection to transubstatiation, famously pressed by Wycliffe, is that according to the Catholic understanding of the doctrine, the accidents of bread and wine persist even though the substance of bread and wine no longer exists. But in Aristotelian metaphysics, accidents are essentially dependent on their substance.

"Eternalism—the view that past and future and present things all exist—provides a neat way for the Catholic to respond to Wycliffe. One can, if one so wishes, hold on to the idea that it is metaphysically necessary that a subject exists if an accident exists. But one denies that it is metaphysically necessary that the subject exists at the same time as the accident. The eternalist then holds that even if the bread and wine have perished at a time t1 after transubstantation, nonetheless it is true at t1 that the bread and wine exist, where the 'exist' is tenseless. On this view, every accident has a subject in the same world but not always at the same time."


- - - - -

link--> Are parts modes?

EXCERPT: There are two variations on Aristotelian ontology. On the sparser version there are substances and their modes (accidents and essences). On the more bloated version there are substances, modes and (proper) parts. I want to argue that the more bloated version should be reduced to the sparser one.

Parts in an Aristotelian ontology are unlike the parts of typical contemporary ontologies. They are not substances, but rather they are objects that depend on the substance they are parts of. At least normally when a part, say a finger, comes to be detached from the substance it is a part of, it ceases to exist—a detached finger is a finger in name only, as Aristotle insists.

This makes the parts of Aristotelian ontology mode-like in their dependence on the whole....

- - - - -

link--> Being is grounded in fundamental being, and presentism

EXCERPT: Assume a bloated ontology, on which there are events, chairs, holes, waves, etc. In defending such a bloated ontology, we should sensibly say that these beings are grounded in what the fundamental beings are and how they are, and so the bloat does not infect fundamental reality.

So far so good. But what if we add presentism into the mix?...

Good for them. Seems abit of metaphysical overkill though. I mean, if the bread and wine exist eternally, so do the Doritos I ate in 1982, the long island ice tea I consumed and blacked out on in 1994, and a bad burrito I ate in 2003 that gave me the runs. That's the problem with eternalism--EVERYTHING gets to be eternal, the profound along with the vast majority of completely mundane and even absurd events. I'm not sure we need to be finding physics loopholes for religious mumbo jumbo anyway. Best to just let THAT kind of theological chicanery die a long overdue death imo.