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+--- Thread: Ieshia Evans - An Iconic image (/thread-2618.html)
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Ieshia Evans - An Iconic image - Ben the Donkey - Jul 12, 2016
Nice photo. Right up there with Tiananmen Square, really.
Now being used for the "Black lives matter" campaign.
For all that a couple of hundred police are killed every year in the USA, though, I would hazard a guess we'll never see a "Blue lives matter" campaign.
I suppose the point that needs making, really, is that officers upholding the law in the USA are more likely to be killed than anywhere else in the western world. By a long way.
More than that (this is the controversial bit, and the elephant in the room) they're disproportionally likely to be killed by armed black men.
Is it any wonder that American police officers tend to be a little jumpy?
All those studies on how much more likely police in the USA are to use guns on black men, and the only line of reasoning they can come up with is "don't be racist"?
I'm in no way excusing some of the actions taken by police officers over the last few years in the USA that have made the news (some more understandable than others, some seeming to be outright murder), but it seems to me the problem is being reported with a very myopic viewpoint. Other considerations on the nature of causality are being completely ignored because they aren't politically expedient.
There are significant differences between, say, the deaths of Alton Sterling, Tamir Rice and Michael Brown. But those differences are being ignored in favour of the simple counting of numbers.
I did a lot of research on this for something I posted on Sciforums about this a while back, and it's fairly obvious to me that the entire debate isn't being looked at properly. Until it is, and America takes an honest look at itself, this issue will not be resolved.
"Iconic images" like this one being used to invoke emotional responses are not going to achieve that. In fact, they are likely to exacerbate the problem, in that the media assisted frenzy is being told it's ok to lay blame entirely on the police.
RE: Ieshia Evans - An Iconic image - Secular Sanity - Jul 12, 2016
(Jul 12, 2016 06:41 AM)Ben the Donkey Wrote: "Iconic images" like this one being used to invoke emotional responses are not going to achieve that. In fact, they are likely to exacerbate the problem, in that the media assisted frenzy is being told it's ok to lay blame entirely on the police.
I agree. The photo is being compared to the one of Jan Rose Kasmir.
Police Brutality
Let's drift away from prose; see what we knows
Corroboration, Persecution, or Morality
'Tis a question of three, who'll play with me?
Just a bit of fun
Won't hurt no one
Rock, Scissors, paper
A little caper
Harder than I thought,
this might take a while
Hang on... am I confusing my style?
Back to the question.
Not claiming I know it
Nor even I'm a poet
Just something to do
Corroboration, Persecution, Morality
Those three, Persecution trumps Corroboration
Sans the former, Corroboration backed into a corner
Leaves two
Persecution and Morality
Former needs a thee
I'm a little cynical, y'see
So
Only one left
Morality
And that one needs a tree
Will you eat with me?
Appropriation: the action of taking something for one’s own use, typically without the owner’s permission. Once you have made it yours, it becomes part of your understanding. Challenges will carry little or no significance.
Don't you remember the article that Plazma posted about opinions based on morality?
RE: Ieshia Evans - An Iconic image - elte - Jul 13, 2016
I recall hearing that Philando Castile had been pulled over something like 52 times for various reasons like broken tail lights. Maybe the kids at school thought they were seriously playing with him by messing with his car. Unfortunately, all those stops can accrue some pretty grave risk, especially when carrying a concealed gun.
RE: Ieshia Evans - An Iconic image - Secular Sanity - Jul 13, 2016
(Jul 13, 2016 12:44 AM)elte Wrote: I recall hearing that Philando Castile had been pulled over something like 52 times for various reasons like broken tail lights. Maybe the kids at school thought they were seriously playing with him by messing with his car. Unfortunately, all those stops can accrue some pretty grave risk, especially when carrying a concealed gun.
Damn, it is heartbreaking to hear her child try to comfort her, isn’t it? What’s your opinion on the Ferguson effect and proactive policing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxyQtvv_1i8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proactive_policing
Maybe it’s time to modify the motor vehicle exception to 4th Amendment. The majority of vehicle searches don’t occur because police have probable cause. Most people assume that they have the right to search your vehicle but all they’re really after is probable cause or your consent. Most police cars have cameras. Minor mechanical violations could be handled through the DMV. However, a Terry stop still seems applicable and necessary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_exception
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause#Consent_to_search
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop
Does anyone know of any peer reviewed studies showing that there are in fact more African Americans killed by police officers and does that data indicate whether or not they were justified?
RE: Ieshia Evans - An Iconic image - elte - Jul 13, 2016
That poor child and her mom who are now so badly scarred. In regard to different policy changes in response to public scrutiny, I guess they want to try something. I don't think they wish to convey an inaccurate impression that they aren't concerned.
RE: Ieshia Evans - An Iconic image - Secular Sanity - Jul 13, 2016
(Jul 13, 2016 03:47 PM)elte Wrote: That poor child and her mom who are now so badly scarred. In regard to different policy changes in response to public scrutiny, I guess they want to try something. I don't think they wish to convey an inaccurate impression that they aren't concerned.
But what if the claims are fiction?
I have no idea. It’s really hard to develop an objective opinion when truthfulness, accuracy, and objectivity are ignored by journalist.
Advocacy journalism sells in today's market. Consumers want and search for news that is intentionally biased.
What are you gonna do?
RE: Ieshia Evans - An Iconic image - elte - Jul 13, 2016
The best I know is try to encourage everyone to avoid thinking in terms of us vs them. There is so much struggle in this world that is non-people related. Even if we could overcome all noninterpersonal struggles, there is reason to improve and seek more progress and advancement for ourselves and civilization.
RE: Ieshia Evans - An Iconic image - Ben the Donkey - Jul 13, 2016
I found quite a few interesting bits of information a while ago. At least I'll assume they're at least reputable, it's a bit difficult to find "peer reviewed" studies on the subject due to its emotional nature.
So I've decided to use FBI data.
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr...r_2013.xls
By far, the most disproportionate murder rates (note - not specifically by firearm) are black males on black males. Given that African-Americans comprise around 15-18% of the total population of the USA and yet comprise nearly half of violent crime statistics (caveat: the FBI table notes it is only one offender/one victim data and includes only those crimes in which the offender was known, which means unsolved homicides aren't being counted here, nor are mass murders from what I can gather) then even allowing for data vagaries it is significant information. Particularly when one separates the "Hispanic" columns by ethnicity.
So that's your basic starting point. In terms of raw numbers, black on black crime is pretty damned bad in the USA in general, on a per-capita basis.
So, I took the liberty of downloading a couple of those FBI tables for year 2013 into Excel (nice little website feature) and sorting them for some background information. Need more data!
Table 20 on the same FBI crime information page reveals that about 2/3 - 3/4 (very roughly) of all homicides in the USA are firearm based.
Table 4 shows the incidence of violent crime and homicide by state.
The states with the highest incidences of both murder and violent crime in general are Texas and California. Yet those two states are also the most highly populated in the USA (Texas being a complete surprise to me), so I thought I'd pretty much ignore that, as it's more indicative to look into the per capita rates.
The southern states tend to figure very highly in the totals, whether we're looking specifically at homicides, or just violent crime in general.
The top five states for murder and violence are District of Columbia (not a state, I know), Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, and Maryland.
District of Columbia (the outlier, in terms of the "southern states" comment and which I've included as a state in its own right for statistical purposes) ) and Louisiana are by far and away the most violent states in the USA. They come in at 15.9 and 10.8 murders per 100,000 respectively, while every other state runs from 7.2 (Alabama) downward. The rate for the entire USA is 4.5 per 100,000, so there's your average line, so those two states are significantly more violent than any others.
I also played with table 20 a bit to produce some results regarding murder rates by firearm as a percentage of total homicides by state, and the top five are the Virgin Islands(!), Delaware, Illinois, DC and Louisiana. These are the states where your murderer is most likely to reach for a gun to do it.
Ok, so there's our homicide and firearm homicide rates. Still need more though.
Next, a look at African American population distribution in the USA.
Highest five states in order are: Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia, Maryland (inc DC) and South Carolina (Delaware comes in at number 8). That's straight from Wikipedia using 2010 data.
There is a direct correlation, therefore, between African-American populations and violent crime by state. This is the thing which most seem to tiptoe around.
Police LODD by state?
A quick look results in this :
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/law-enforcement-fatality-rates-by-state.html
Lousiana comes in second, behind Georgia, in a five year period. The south east, again, on average.
The FBI site doesn't give information on LODD (that I could find) but I got some numbers on total officers as a percentage of population from table 77.
The two states with the highest ratio of police officers to population (an indication of crime rates) are... drumroll... DC and Louisiana, at 0.77% and 0.44% respectively.
BUT, after all this, to be fair:
The last thing I'll include (for now) is economics - the poorest states in the USA in terms of average household income. It's a bit difficult to find any accurate information on the net, as it varies a bit from page to page, but again the southern states figure lowest, with Louisiana in particular in the bottom ten and sometimes the bottom five. Maryland has the highest average income - but when considering the relationship between poverty and violence rates I'd imagine it also would be worth trying to figure out the highest income differential by state, which is something I haven't done. Maryland is the state which throws up some really strange data, but there are reasons for that I'm sure I don't really need to go into (also, I'm not an American so would be mostly guessing based on what I can glean from the net... and TV shows like "The Wire").
Now isn't that interesting. Lousiana (Baton Rouge) is the state in which Ieshia Evans was photographed reacting to police violence.
The second most violent state in the USA (Only if you separate DC).
The fifth highest state in which someone committing murder reaches for a gun to do so.
The fifth highest state for percentage of African-American population.
Economically - one of the worst off in the USA.
I don't consider myself particularly racist (I think every one is, to a varying extent, whether or not they know acknowledge it) but, to me, it's pretty goddamned obvious that there are reasons why police are nervous in Louisiana and overly quick to reach for weapons... particularly, perhaps, when in contact with black folks.
I've included the economic data because I'm sure it's fairly common knowledge that poverty and crime have a direct correlation, and that the African American population in the USA (particularly in the south) accounts for a disproportionate amount of poverty in the USA. No need to educate me on either point.
But this entire post has taken me a couple of hours to put together (sorry if some of it isn't clear) in order to reinforce the point that it isn't right at all to only look at the problem from a police violence perspective. And why I'm so angry at that damned photo.
(I saved copies of all my spreadsheets if anyone really needs to see them - also, the data tables can be found under the "violent crime" and "police employee data" tabs, on the right.)
SS - in reply to your last (what are you gonna do?)
The research, for yourself. Data, spreadsheets, analysis.
That's how I do it... I'm well aware most won't.
Heh. Couple of hours later, I'm now ready for bed.
RE: Ieshia Evans - An Iconic image - Secular Sanity - Jul 13, 2016
Ben the Donkey Wrote:I don't consider myself particularly racist (I think every one is, to a varying extent, whether or not they know acknowledge it) but, to me, it's pretty goddamned obvious that there are reasons why police are nervous in Louisiana and overly quick to reach for weapons... particularly, perhaps, when in contact with black folks.
But, Ben, I'm pretty sure that just being in a high-crime area isn't sufficient grounds for reasonable suspicion, unless, of course, a crime has just occurred in that particular location. It all boils down to racial profiling, doesn't it?
Quote:DEFINITION OF RACIAL PROFILING
Amnesty International USA defines racial profiling as the targeting of individuals and groups by law enforcement officials, even partially, on the basis of race, ethnicity, national origin, or religion, except where there is trustworthy information, relevant to the locality and time-frame that links persons belonging to one of the aforementioned groups to an identified criminal incident or scheme.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/pdfs/rp_report.pdf
In this video below, Jack Glaser makes a compelling argument against racial profiling. He's the author of "Suspect Race—Causes and Consequences of Racial Profiling".
Jack Glaser on Racial Profiling
RE: Ieshia Evans - An Iconic image - Secular Sanity - Jul 14, 2016
I was wrong, Ben.
In 1996, the courts ruled that if an actual traffic violation has occurred, the officer’s personal motivations for stopping the vehicle are irrelevant. The 4th Amendment requires a balancing test between a search-and-seizure's benefits and the harm it might cause to the individual, such a test only applies to unusually harmful searches and seizures. Instead of protesting, they need to challenge this law. It looks like quite a few people are already working on it.
In the case of Philando Castile, the stop was extremely harmful. As far as I can tell, his 4th Amendment rights were violated.
The Law of Pretext Stops
Whren v. United States
Facts of the case
Whren and Brown were driving in a 'high drug area.' Some plainclothes officers, while patrolling the neighborhood in an unmarked vehicle, noticed Whren and Brown sitting in a truck at an intersection stop-sign for a usually long time. Suddenly, without signaling, Whren turned his truck and sped away. Observing this traffic violation, the officers stopped the truck. When they approached the vehicle, the officers saw Whren holding plastic bags of crack cocaine. Whren and Brown were arrested on federal drug charges. Before trial, they moved to suppress the evidence contending that the officers used the traffic violation as a pretext for stopping the truck because they lacked either reasonable suspicion or probable cause to stop them on suspicion of drug dealing. The District Court denied the motion to suppress and convicted the petitioners. The Court of Appeals affirmed. The Supreme Court granted certiorari.
Question
Did the officers conduct an unreasonable search and seizure in violation of the Fourth Amendment?
Conclusion
No. The unanimous Court held that as long as officers have a reasonable cause to believe that a traffic violation occurred, they may stop any vehicle. In the present case, the officers had reasonable cause to stop the petitioners for a traffic violation since they sped away from a stop sign at an 'unreasonable speed' and without using their turn signal. Thus, since an actual traffic violation occurred, the ensuing search and seizure of the offending vehicle was reasonable, regardless of what other personal motivations the officers might have had for stopping the vehicle. Furthermore, the Court rejected the claim that the anxiety, confusion, and haste which the petitioners experienced from the stop-and-search certiorari. While the Fourth Amendment does require a balancing test between a search-and-seizure's benefits and the harm it might cause to the individual, such a test only applies to unusually harmful searches and seizures. There was nothing unusually harmful about this traffic stop.
https://www.oyez.org/cases/1995/95-5841
http://www.sdflaw.com/files/The_Law_of_Pretext_Stops_Since_Whren_v_United_States.pdf
Additional Reading
An Empirical Analysis of Racial Differences in Police Use of Force
Roland Fryer Answers Questions
And...Chief Flynn Raised a Good Point