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+--- Thread: Gazan community - are the vast majority Hamas? (/thread-16613.html)
Gazan community - are the vast majority Hamas? - confused2 - Oct 5, 2024
Gaza is effectively a prisoner of war camp. By definition those inside a POW camp are POWs. By convention POWs are allowed to return home when the war ends but in this case their home is covered in Kibbutzes and there is no home for them to return to. The drip-feed of weapons into the camp constantly reminds both sides that the other is the enemy and can (deservedly so) be killed.
On the Israeli side they have these missiles coming over and the problem of over a million POWs (mostly civilians) who can never be released. If those civilians can be cast as 'effectively Hamas' they become legitimate military targets and to do that they needed to make the people outside the fence extremely angry. Attacks on defenseless girls are a great way to invoke righteous indignation .. like the defenseless girls observing and 'guarding' the Gazan fence on Oct 7 2023.. the defenseless kibbutzers .. possibly even the Nova festival folks though they might just have been unlucky.
From the BBC.. New accounts reveal how the Israeli base fell on 7 October
Quote:Suspicious activity was spotted by many soldiers at the base before 7 October, not just the young women whose job it was to monitor border cameras
Soldiers noticed an abrupt stop to Hamas activity in the days before the attack
Many Israeli troops there were unarmed and official protocols had soldiers standing back when under attack, instead of advancing
Some surveillance equipment was either out of action or able to be destroyed by Hamas with ease
The details we have established raise questions - including why so few soldiers were armed at a base so close to the border, why more wasn’t done to respond to the intelligence and warnings that had been received, how it took so long for reinforcements to arrive, and whether [why] the very infrastructure of the base had left those there unprotected.
In full https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg7825rk8j9o
On the Gazan side they have 100,000 angry young men with only three missiles a day to work with. To keep the angry young men under control requires some sort of military organisation. The (almost) only possible object of a military organisation within a POW camp is to fight (kill) the folks that guard the camp.
BBC again ..Jeremy Bowen (a reporter) pressed Hamas deputy leader (currently Khalil al-Hayya) on 7 October attacks
Quote:Challenged by BBC international editor Jeremy Bowen, Khalil al-Hayya, the deputy leader of Hamas, denied overwhelming evidence that Hamas fighters targeted civilians during the attacks on 7 October last year.In full:
....
Al-Hayya said the 7 October attacks last year were necessary to place the issue of Palestinian statehood back on the global agenda.
Without it, he said, the cycle of violence in the Middle East would not end.
Pressed on whether he regretted an offensive that led to the deaths of more than 40,000 Gazans in Israeli attacks, he said Israel’s occupation of land Palestinians believe is theirs was at the root of the violence and killing in the Middle East.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/cdd4rpv5jp0o
RE: Gazan community - are the vast majority Hamas? - Syne - Oct 5, 2024
(Oct 5, 2024 03:48 PM)confused2 Wrote: ... but in this case their home is covered in Kibbutzes and there is no home for them to return to.
Ignorant antisemitic garbage.
RE: Gazan community - are the vast majority Hamas? - confused2 - Oct 5, 2024
(Oct 5, 2024 07:58 PM)Syne Wrote:(Oct 5, 2024 03:48 PM)confused2 Wrote: ... but in this case their home is covered in Kibbutzes and there is no home for them to return to.
Ignorant antisemitic garbage.
You've solved the problem! .. they (Gazan Palestinians) can all go home .. a shame it's taken over 70 years ..
RE: Gazan community - are the vast majority Hamas? - Syne - Oct 6, 2024
There are no Kibbutzes in Gaza. There has never been a nation of Palestine. Just because terrorists claim Israel as their own doesn't make it so.
Believing them makes you a special kind of dupe.
RE: Gazan community - are the vast majority Hamas? - confused2 - Oct 6, 2024
If there are millions of people calling themselves Palestinian who believe they are from a place called Palestine then that is the reality on the ground. Yazata mentioned in passing that Gaza was actually a rather nice slice of real estate - calling it New Palestine might make it a place folks would want to get into rather than out of .. but you'd have to get past the "No Palestine" hurdle first.
RE: Gazan community - are the vast majority Hamas? - confused2 - Oct 6, 2024
oops?
https://www.judaicawebstore.co.uk/-zeev-raban-come-to-palestine-1929-poster-p5933
RE: Gazan community - are the vast majority Hamas? - Syne - Oct 6, 2024
Why do antisemitic morons always refuse to simply look at history or even just use simple reasoning?
Palestine is and has always only been a geographic region, like the US Midwest or the Scottish Highlands.
Yes, people call themselves Midwesterners or Highlanders, but that doesn't make the region a nation.
So you can play word games all you like, but that doesn't change the facts.
The people who claim to be Palestinian claim the whole geographic region, including all of Israel. This is why "from the river to the sea" is a call for Jewish genocide, because no neighboring Muslim country allows any Jews to live there (while Israel has over 2 million Arabs as citizens... that's 21% of the Israeli population but 40% the size of the population of Gaza and the West Bank). If you think Gazans would be more apt to coexist with Jews, you're a moron.
The "reality on the ground" is that those Arabs have always sought the genocide of all Jews. The only hurdle to a peaceful Palestine (Gaza & West Bank) is the Palestinians themselves. They are the only ones keeping the violence going. Blaming Israel for retaliation and seeking buffer zones against terrorist neighbors is pure antisemitic bigotry.
You'll go to any length to excuse the violent terrorism perpetrated by Palestinians for decades. Any we know they are largely of one mind, because they voted for Hamas in free elections and say they support Oct 7th. There's a thin line between you being an idiot and you just being evil yourself. Since those facts don't ever seem to give you pause, I'm betting on the latter.
RE: Gazan community - are the vast majority Hamas? - C C - Oct 6, 2024
Topic Title Wrote:Gazan community - are the vast majority Hamas?
Certainly not. But that doesn't mean the armed tail can't wag the unarmed dog. Propaganda brainwashing mixed with physical intimidation is a very persuasive tool that some minorities wield.
Any population group has negative elements concealed amongst its regular members. Italian immigration, for instance, entailed that the Mafia would be amongst them. Or the Bratva for Russian immigrants. And so forth. Those negative elements in turn can tyrannize the conventional members in neighborhoods where they dominate (including bribing law enforcement and government). Agents of crime, drug cartel, and terrorist organizations will also be worshiped or admired as heroes by local youth that the former interact with and recruit in those communities.
One of the multiple reasons why local Arab countries (Egypt in particular) won't accept Palestinian refugees is because that consequently also means importing the terrorist clans and their buffs amongst them, who will then set up shop in those countries and invite explosive Israeli strikes (along with subversive campaigns to corrupt and undermine the governments of those neighboring states, too). In that respect, Arab legislators or rulers are arguably less reality-impaired than their US counterparts.
Inferred Question Wrote:Where does ultimate responsibility for this mess lie, in terms of historical context?
Zionist immigration to Palestine was encouraged and enabled by the West -- especially Great Britain. And in the background of that, too, is the West's own persecution of Jews, contributing to their desire for a homeland.
It was part of "Ottoman Syria" before the British acquired control of the region after WWI. It wasn't until then that the relic name of "Palestine" starting coming back into formal use (only unofficially hovering around slightly through the prior centuries).
The inhabitants themselves were absent a national identity: "Palestinian society was largely clan-based (hamula), with an urban land-holding elite lacking a centralised leadership."
Ironically, it was the off-and-on support of Zionist immigration by the British colonial administration that generated a counter-movement oriented toward Palestinian nationalism. IOW, the inhabitants didn't care squat about having a "country status" until outsiders -- i.e., Western interference -- started compromising their cultural traditions. (Otherwise, sounds like a familiar tune or reaction with respect to unbridled migrant policies.)
Their new "ethnocentrism ideology" solidly crystallized in the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine. It was the devastating British response to that rebellion -- the lingering effects of it -- that aided victory for Zionists in the civil war circa a decade later. Where the 700,000 Arabs were expelled.
1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine: During this phase, the rebellion was brutally suppressed by the British Army and the Palestine Police Force using repressive measures that were intended to intimidate the whole population and undermine popular support for the revolt.
[...] According to official British figures covering the whole revolt, the army and police killed more than 2,000 Arabs in combat, 108 were hanged, and 961 died because of what they described as "gang and terrorist activities". In an analysis of the British statistics, Walid Khalidi estimates 19,792 casualties for the Arabs, with 5,032 dead: 3,832 killed by the British and 1,200 dead due to intracommunal terrorism, and 14,760 wounded. By one estimate, ten percent of the adult male Palestinian Arab population between 20 and 60 was killed, wounded, imprisoned or exiled. Estimates of the number of Palestinian Jews killed are up to several hundred.
The Arab revolt in Mandatory Palestine was unsuccessful, and its consequences affected the outcome of the 1948 Palestine war. It caused the British Mandate to give crucial support to pre-state Zionist militias like the Haganah, whereas on the Palestinian Arab side, the revolt forced the flight into exile of the main Palestinian Arab leader of the period, al-Husseini.
RE: Gazan community - are the vast majority Hamas? - Syne - Oct 6, 2024
There has always been far more historical precedent of a Jewish inhabitation of the land of Israel than any other monolithic ethnicity.
RE: Gazan community - are the vast majority Hamas? - confused2 - Oct 6, 2024
(Oct 6, 2024 08:22 PM)Syne Wrote: There has always been far more historical precedent of a Jewish inhabitation of the land of Israel than any other monolithic ethnicity.
Surprisingly .. the wand chooses the wizard .. not the other way round.