Why did the pope phone the philosopher?

#1
https://aeon.co/ideas/why-did-the-pope-p...hilosopher

EXCERPT: . . . So Pope Francis decided to call to congratulate [Gianni] Vattimo. Beside the interest both men share in the reformation of the Church and alarm over capitalism’s destructive forces, there is a particular attitude toward religion that unites them. [...]

Although Vattimo has been a supporter of Francis since his election, his particular interpretation of religion goes back to the 1990s, when Vattimo began to apply his philosophy to the possibility of a ‘nonreligious Christianity’. This expression refers to a faith without foundations [...]

The weakening of divine transcendence and sovereignty – which are figures of violence for the Italian philosopher – leads to softening the faith and encouraging believers to doubt the authority of sacred texts, the Church and, most of all, the pope. But when Francis responds to questions about ‘gay believers’ with a simple ‘Who am I to judge?’ or agrees that ‘there must be more’ women in key roles in the governing body of the Church, he is inviting us not only to doubt these principles but also to change our attitude toward religion.

This attitude is not meant to doubt the existence of God but rather to recall, as Francis wrote in Rejoice and Be Glad (2018), how ‘Christianity is meant above all to be put into practice’. [...] It should come as no surprise that Vattimo and Francis share similar enemies: ecclesiastical intellectuals and conservative cardinals. Their call for a different attitude and practice of Christianity does not undermine theological discussions over the existence of God as much as it undermines the excuse those intellectuals and cardinals rely on to preach on abortion, homosexuality or morality.

Despite these enemies, when Francis began to reorient the Church toward climate change, financial reform and charitable refugee policies, he became, as Vattimo pointed out, ‘one of those rare figures in the world, perhaps the only one, capable of guiding a radical transformation of the social and economic order’. Although Vattimo does not pretend that Francis will become the chief of a communist movement, considering that he is tied to the faith’s orthodoxy, he seems to be the only world figure today capable of confronting the various Right-wing populists emerging to impose nationalist and xenophobic policies....

MORE: https://aeon.co/ideas/why-did-the-pope-p...hilosopher
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#2
Like all postmodernists, the pope seems intent on destroying the organizations that support him and his ideals.
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#3
Anytime someone wants to chip away at organized religion I'm OK with it..
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#4
Then you're okay with losing the only moral moderating force in history. Governments have never been able to do it.
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#5
(Oct 5, 2018 04:44 PM)Syne Wrote: Then you're okay with losing the only moral moderating force in history. Governments have never been able to do it.

Yes. Time to go. My atheist morals are fine and if I can acquire them sans religion, then so can anybody else, gov't included. IMHO
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#6
(Oct 5, 2018 04:44 PM)Syne Wrote: Then you're okay with losing the only moral moderating force in history. Governments have never been able to do it.

Sure...a selfish greed to reach heaven. Shameful fear of being punished. Crippling guilt over sin. Groveling dependency on praying and confession. Sexual repression. And faith and trust in the authority of the Church or the Bible even against all reason and evidence. Yep.. Great moral values to instill in the masses.

“One of the greatest tragedies in mankind's entire history may be that morality was hijacked by religion.”
― Arthur C. Clarke
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#7
someone should start a christian world bank.
savings and low cost home loans.
would be fabulous if all the worlds christians joined it and merged all their global housing projects into it.
they would be able to tripple the amount of free homes for homeless they build at no extra cost.

imagine them being able to give out 200,000 new home mortgages every year at cost value(profit free) into 1st world housing markets.
etc...
build entire small satalite towns for 3rd world countrys with sewage and water etc...
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#8
(Oct 5, 2018 07:31 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote:
(Oct 5, 2018 04:44 PM)Syne Wrote: Then you're okay with losing the only moral moderating force in history. Governments have never been able to do it.

Yes. Time to go. My atheist morals are fine and if I can acquire them sans religion, then so can anybody else, gov't included. IMHO
Are they really, or have they just not been tested? There's a difference between "fine" and resilient under stress.
(Oct 5, 2018 07:49 PM)Magical Realist Wrote:
(Oct 5, 2018 04:44 PM)Syne Wrote: Then you're okay with losing the only moral moderating force in history. Governments have never been able to do it.

Sure...a selfish greed to reach heaven. Shameful fear of being punished. Crippling guilt over sin. Groveling dependency on praying and confession. Sexual repression. And faith and trust in the authority of the Church or the Bible even against all reason and evidence. Yep.. Great moral values to instill in the masses.

“One of the greatest tragedies in mankind's entire history may be that morality was hijacked by religion.”
― Arthur C. Clarke

You still only seem to understand religion as it was taught you as a unsophisticated child...by Seventh Day Adventists. Rolleyes
Oh, you mean "a selfish greed" to do good and help others in order "to reach heaven"? How dastardly. Dodgy
And a "fear of being punished" that keeps people from doing "shameful" things? Rolleyes
Which is it? Either enough fear to avoid doing "shameful" things that produce "crippling guilt" or shame and guilt for lack of enough fear?
Most religious would call what you characterize as "groveling" as uplifting communion (you know, that pesky transcendence you have no clue about).
Sexual repression? Oh, you mean like norms that encourage people to marry and stay together, instead of producing fatherless criminals, substances abusers, depressives, etc.?
You're the last person to be talking about "reason and evidence", as those are not things of which you've demonstrated the least bit of comprehension. How are those toilet ghosts of yours doing? Rolleyes
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#9
Quote:You still only seem to understand religion as it was taught you as a unsophisticated child...by Seventh Day Adventists.

I have the advantage of seeing religion from the believer's side and for many more years from the non-believer's side. So yes I understand religion very well in all it's forms. The "values" I listed can be found as part of the teachings of all 3 of the monotheisms and their various denominations, which probably comprises a sizeable majority of all religious people on earth. Greed, fear, hatred and demonization of others, self-righteousness, guilt, fanatical intolerance, mind control, shame for your own natural impulses, monomania, unconditional faith, and an obsession for another world that disables you from living authentically in this one. That's the horrible legacy of this ancient system of superstitions and delusions that has enslaved humans for thousands of years.
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#10
(Oct 6, 2018 01:03 AM)Magical Realist Wrote:
Quote:You still only seem to understand religion as it was taught you as a unsophisticated child...by Seventh Day Adventists.

I have the advantage of seeing religion from the believer's side and for many more years from the non-believer's side. So yes I understand religion very well in all it's forms. The "values" I listed can be found as part of the teachings of all 3 of the monotheisms and their various denominations, which probably comprises a sizeable majority of all religious people on earth. Greed, fear, hatred of others, self-righteousness, guilt, shame for your own natural impulses, monomania, unconditional faith, and an obsession for another world that removes you from living authentically in this one. That's the horrible legacy of this ancient system of superstitions and delusions that has enslaved humans for thousands of years.

The naive child believer's side of a nonrepresentational denomination.
Interesting though that Seventh Day Adventists believe in annihilationism (where the unredeemed consciousness is extinguished at death) and atheists basically hold the same view.
Your naive take on religion, learned as a child and not developed as an adult, is woefully lacking. And you claiming otherwise only demonstrates the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Greed, fear, hatred, and self-righteousness are actually taught against in the Bible. Guilt and shame are the result of doing what you know is wrong.
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