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https://www.quantamagazine.org/egg-layin...-20200518/

EXCERPTS: The old riddle, “Which came first, the chicken or the egg?” is relatively easy to answer as a question about the evolution of birth in animals. Egg laying almost certainly came before live birth; the armored fish that inhabited the oceans half a billion years ago and were ancestral to all land vertebrates seem to have laid eggs. But the rest of the story is far from straightforward.

Over millennia of evolution, nature has come up with only two ways for a newborn animal to come into the world. Either its mother lays it in an egg, where it can continue to grow before hatching, or it stays inside its mother until emerging as a more fully formed squirming newborn. “We have this really fundamental split,” said Camilla Whittington, a biologist at the University of Sydney.

Is there some primordial reason for this strict reproductive dichotomy between egg laying (oviparity) and live birth (viviparity)? When and why did live birth evolve? These are just some of the questions that new research — including studies of a remarkable lizard that can lay eggs and bear live young at the same time — is exploring, all the while underscoring the enormous complexity and variability of sexual reproduction.

[...] The major difference between oviparity and viviparity therefore centers on a strategic evolutionary decision about when the mother should deposit her embryos. If she deposits them early, she’s an egg layer, and if she deposits them late, she’s a live bearer. Most reptiles, for instance, deposit their embryos just a third of the way through their development.

“Between true egg laying and live bearing there’s a whole range of possible times [to deposit the embryo], but it’s probably disadvantageous to do that [...] We call it a fitness valley.” Animals that try to give birth somewhere in that fitness valley might incur all the risks of egg laying and live bearing without reaping the benefits of either. “We think that, evolutionarily, that’s quite disadvantageous,” she said.

(Marsupials found a novel solution to balancing these risks: The young they give birth to are practically fetal in their immaturity, but they then finish their development inside their mother’s pouch. In this way, the mother can provide the protective advantages of carrying her young to full term without needing to accommodate a full-size newborn inside her body.)

Scientists are still learning about the developmental constraints and requirements of these birth strategies. Consider, for instance, the thickness of an eggshell. [...] before a species could evolve live birth, it probably had to evolve the ability to determine the sex of its offspring genetically. ... Live birth or egg laying might seem like a definitive either-or choice for a species, but surprisingly, that’s not always the case... (MORE - details)
Very interesting read. It's intriguing to know that as the article states viviparity has been evidenced to have evolved that many times in reptiles. Certainly food for thought!
(Jun 4, 2020 07:53 PM)Thyridopteryx Wrote: [ -> ]Very interesting read. It's intriguing to know that as the article states viviparity has been evidenced to have evolved that many times in reptiles. Certainly food for thought!

Welcome to the cedar tree. Multiple places to hang.
Any thought that egg laying was more beneficial to species under heavy threat of predation and along the same lines parents less capable of protecting young? Although difficult to think an adult crocodilian would be in a state of imminent danger at all times, protecting young is not it’s forte. IMHO predation of.adults and progeny is number one reason for egg laying. It’s just that young are harder to rear or mind and easier to catch. I also would think more eggs can fit into a womb than miniature adult(s) so evolution took the easy way out.

Has there ever been a time on Earth when predators outnumbered prey? Or when the prey per predator rate increased dramatically, perhaps even recent like where things are now for instance. I can easily down 15-20 chicken wings in one meal....lol
Actually answer may not be this simple. Initial life forms "increased their numbers" by simple cell division. Once the different species appeared, they exhibited different way to increase their populations. But this evolution took millions of years and several iterations of trial and error. So egg may be only one of the several options that were tried, and accepted by some species. Thus my vote is for the chicken.
How would an egg evolve, what stages of evolution would be seen over millions of years? At some point a mutation caused a membrane to grow around a fertilized egg in the womb? Not a hard shell at first but something akin to an amniotic sac that was delivered early as fetus developed? Gradually it may have become harder, who knows but whatever it was proved to be successful.
But when you say "womb" or "amniotic sac" then you should have some form of chicken to hold them.

In my opinion egg merely represent one of the available biological mechanics to increase the copies (pass on the genes) or modified/evolved version of original copy.

Thus original copy should exist before its photocopy version.

Thus the Chicken Smile
(Jul 10, 2020 04:47 PM)Prakash Dubey Wrote: [ -> ]But when you say "womb" or "amniotic sac" then you should have some form of chicken to hold them.

In my opinion egg merely represent one of the available biological mechanics to increase the copies (pass on the genes) or modified/evolved version of original copy.

Thus original copy should exist before its photocopy version.

Thus the Chicken Smile


Welcome, Prakash.

In the context of the very long term game, I guess we could say that the original ancestral eurkaryote came first, before both the chicken and the egg (with lots of non-avian creatures evolving in between). The fertilized chicken egg is a nutrient resource and protective enclosure for a developing single-cell organism (zygote). So in a way the egg is housing something akin to the deep-time progenitor (though heavily modified to differentiate as it replicates into the tissues and organs of a multi-celled animal).