Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

I’ve been interested in Albrecht Dürer’s master prints here lately. I’ve read all the interpretations. What’s fascinating to me is that all three of them are attempts at redemption. In my opinion they’re just different ways to justify our existence. He says, "The lie is in our understanding, and darkness is so firmly entrenched in our mind that even our groping will fail."

I was surprised by this sixty symbol video, however. Professor Eaves was fascinated by the fact that if you take the number 1 in the title (Melancholia I) and add it to the total, it equals 137, which is related to the fine structure constant. Eddington was the first to propose why the value might be important for cosmology but he originally thought it was exactly 1/136.  Professor Eaves admits it’s just a coincidence but he doesn’t even mention anything about the noticeable 6 underneath the number 5, with one being the difference, nor does he mention anything about the unusual number 9 that appears to be the symbol of Leo (lion), which IMHO would tie all three master prints together.

"The prints are considered thematically related by some art historians, depicting labours that are intellectual (Melencolia I), moral (Knight), or spiritual (St. Jerome) in nature. While Dürer sometimes distributed Melencolia I with St. Jerome in His Study, there is no evidence that he conceived of them as a thematic group. The print has two states; in the first, the number nine in the magic square appears backward, but in the second, more common impressions it is a somewhat odd-looking regular nine."—Melencolia I

I didn't verify the part about the orignal sketch being a backwards nine.  Who knows?



This odd looking regular 9 though looks exactly like the Leo symbol that he used in his portrait of Johannes Kelberger.



This might be a bit of of a stretch but the 6 underneath the 5 is odd and St. Jerome’s letter 65 is To Principia, is about the intellectual female. It’s a memoir of Saint Marcella.

He said this about her...

As in those days my name was held in some renown as that of a student of the Scriptures, she never came to see me without asking me some questions about them, nor would she rest content at once, but on the contrary would dispute them; this, however, was not for the sake of argument, but to learn by questioning the answers to such objections might, as she saw, be raised. How much virtue and intellect, how much holiness and purity I found in her I am afraid to say, both lest I may exceed the bounds of men's belief and lest I may increase your sorrow by reminding you of the blessings you have lost. This only will I say, that whatever I had gathered together by long study, and by constant meditation made part of my nature, she tasted, she learned and made her own.

What do you think? It this 6/5 thing too big of a stretch?

(May 9, 2020 12:24 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ][...] Professor Eaves admits it’s just a coincidence but he doesn’t even mention anything about the noticeable 6 underneath the number 5, with one being the difference [...] This might be a bit of of a stretch but the 6 underneath the 5 is odd and St. Jerome’s letter 65 is To Principia, is about the intellectual female. [...]

To project alternative spookiness into it, the five above the six could also signify "56". Which is the age Dürer was when he died. Erhard Schön made a woodcut portrait of Dürer after the latter's demise that's titled "Albrecht Dürer at Age Fifty-Six".

At least Dürer did deliberately insert cryptic items in his work. But, of course, that still doesn't prevent some kind of semantic, language, or symbol-pattern apophenia from rearing its head occasionally.  ("The primary objection advanced against Bible codes is that information theory does not prohibit *noise* from appearing to be sometimes meaningful.")

Quote:What do you think? It this 6/5 thing too big of a stretch?

There does seem to be a six underneath the five, but I really didn't notice it (or get what you were referring to) until after watching the video's image of the magic square flash by. Sharp eyes ye hath, SS.

(May 9, 2020 04:15 AM)C C Wrote: [ -> ]To project alternative spookiness into it, the five above the six could also signify "56". Which is the age Dürer was when he died. Erhard Schön made a woodcut portrait of Dürer after the latter's demise that's titled "Albrecht Dürer at Age Fifty-Six".

At least Dürer did deliberately insert cryptic items in his work. But, of course, that still doesn't prevent some kind of semantic, language, or symbol-pattern apophenia from rearing its head occasionally.  ("The primary objection advanced against Bible codes is that information theory does not prohibit *noise* from appearing to be sometimes meaningful.")

There does seem to be a six underneath the five, but I really didn't notice it (or get what you were referring to) until after watching the video's image of the magic square flash by. Sharp eyes ye hath, SS.

True but sometimes there's patterns hidden within the *noise*. I do it with my poetry all the time. The death is a creeping coincidence but then I'd expect to find the five first, hidden behind the six. Hmm...maybe not, though. You'd read the five first and that is most likely a death bell hanging over the top of the magic square. Weird coincidence, that's for sure. 

Although, he did create "The opening of the fifth and sixth seals".

Not only do the rows and columns and diagonals add up to 34 in this magic square but so do all the combinations of 4 numbers marked by linked dots.

I'm probably reading too much into it but I also noticed that the actual constellation of Leo is a backwards question mark. The symbol itself is in the opposite direction though. Also, in Duerer’s Solid the skeleton is in the shape of the star of David (Lion of Judah).

http://freimaurer-wiki.de/index.php/Date...r-wiki.jpg

And if you overlay the star of David onto the magic square the four points 5,9,8 and 12 add up to 34. And the 3,2,15, and 14 add up to 34. I’ve never seen anyone point that out before so it’s probably not significant but it’s interesting.

Quote:It is not to be wondered at, therefore, that for a long time both the five-pointed and the six-pointed stars were called by one name, the "Seal of Solomon," and that no distinction was made between them. This name is obviously related to the Jewish legend of Solomon's dominion over the spirits, and of his ring with the Ineffable Name engraved on it. These legends expanded and proliferated in a marked fashion during the Middle Ages, among Jews and Arabs alike, but the name, "Seal of Solomon," apparently originated with the Arabs. This term they did not apply to any one design exclusively; they applied it to an entire series of seven seals to which they attributed extreme potency in putting to fight the forces of the Demon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_David

Did you watch the movie Melancholia?

The horse’s name is Abraham. God orders Abraham to look now toward heaven, and tell the stars. But I can’t figure out why they’re never able to cross the bridge in the movie. The only thing I can come up with is the narrow land bridge promised by God to his decedents. They even pitched a tent in this passage, which is similar to the last scene. I don’t know. What do you think, CC?

(May 9, 2020 05:02 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ][...] Did you watch the movie Melancholia?

I'm finally going to see it this week. Going to put my foot down to an almost DID like personality state that infrequently rants her phobia of Kirsten Dunst in the background of my mind. Watched the second season of Fargo once, that had KD in it, so no excuses.

-->Fierce magical gestures<-- ... Get thee behind me thou inner demon Seeny and whisper not thy manic conspiracies! The "Turning Japanese" cover video did not have sinister subliminal memes in it that infect the viewer, nor does any other work involving Kirsten Dunst feature such.

Quote:The horse’s name is Abraham. God orders Abraham to look now toward heaven, and tell the stars. But I can’t figure out why they’re never able to cross the bridge in the movie. The only thing I can come up with is the narrow land bridge promised by God to his decedents. They even pitched a tent in this passage, which is similar to the last scene. I don’t know. What do you think, CC?

I'll be back. Not sure with anything useful insight-wise, but I'm not going to let that Seeny menace stop me from observing "Melancholia" this time.

(May 9, 2020 05:02 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ][...] Did you watch the movie Melancholia?

(May 10, 2020 02:31 AM)C C Wrote: [ -> ]I'm finally going to see it this week. Going to put my foot down to an almost DID like personality state that infrequently rants her phobia of Kirsten Dunst in the background of my mind. Watched the second season of Fargo once, that had KD in it, so no excuses.

-->Fierce magical gestures<-- ... Get thee behind me thou inner demon Seeny and whisper not thy manic conspiracies! The "Turning Japanese" cover video did not have sinister subliminal memes in it that infect the viewer, nor does any other work involving Kirsten Dunst feature such.

(May 9, 2020 05:02 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]The horse’s name is Abraham. God orders Abraham to look now toward heaven, and tell the stars. But I can’t figure out why they’re never able to cross the bridge in the movie. The only thing I can come up with is the narrow land bridge promised by God to his decedents. They even pitched a tent in this passage, which is similar to the last scene. I don’t know. What do you think, CC?

(May 10, 2020 02:31 AM)C C Wrote: [ -> ]I'll be back. Not sure with anything useful insight-wise, but I'm not going to let that Seeny menace stop me from observing "Melancholia" this time.

Okay, Part Deux. Saw "Melancholia" at last.

In sharp contrast, I also completed the long, frequently stalled ordeal of watching the seven seasons of "True Blood" a few days ago (Zzzzzz....). So I guess I shouldn't have been surprised by the coincidence of Alexander Skarsgård being in this movie as the groom.

Antares ("heart of the scorpion" or "rival of Ares") stung Orion (the huntsman) in one version of myth (he was killed by Artemis in another).

2nd (personal) coincidence: I started using Pieter Bruegel's paintings as desktop wallpaper because I was struck by the scenes of everyday medieval life. His "The Return of the Hunters" appears in Melancholia at least a couple of times. Andrei Tarkovsky's 1972 movie version of "Solaris" exhibits several Bruegel's paintings, including that one. "Solaris" the film revolved around depression in space with respect to multiple individuals. (Lem apparently hated it because it strayed from the original intent of his novel).

Speaking of paintings (but also why bother since it's needless to say turf?), "Ophelia" surely being behind Melancholia's movie poster. But I don't feel that Justine is really the one who drowns in the end (more on that below). OTOH, if it is an alt-option of "floating calmly down the river" to the end, then that does apply.

Justine and Claire seem to psychologically go in opposite directions as the movie progresses. Like this (another coincidence in terms of posting it before watching the movie), Justine comes to terms with death after being disturbed in the beginning, and speaks her mind to Jack and does unbridled things she was arguably stifled to do beforehand.

Maybe that's also another plural significance to the bridge. Justine is first in having tacit "awareness" of the impeding disaster and is haunted or trapped by it -- horse can't cross the bridge, but oblivious Claire can. By the end she has transcended beyond her sister, and thereby could have crossed it by then for a different or the opposite reason of Claire's initial knowledge innocence.

Justine (paraphrasing bits): "The Earth is evil and we don't need to grieve for it. [...] When I say we're alone, we're alone. Life is only on Earth, and not for long [...] I just know things."

I guess Bruegel's "The Land of Cockaigne" appears in Melancholia, too, But I missed that along with probably several other items -- was interrupted and distracted by assorted household interference the whole time I watched it. "... it is a land of contraries, where all the restrictions of society are defied (abbots beaten by their monks), sexual liberty is open (nuns flipped over to show their bottoms), and food is plentiful (skies that rain cheese). "

(May 11, 2020 07:08 PM)C C Wrote: [ -> ]Justine and Claire seem to psychologically go in opposite directions as the movie progresses. Like this (another coincidence in terms of posting it before watching the movie), Justine comes to terms with death after being disturbed in the beginning, and speaks her mind to Jack and does unbridled things she was arguably stifled to do beforehand.

Yeah, I read that. I liked it and that always happens to me, too. I just chalk it up to something similar to the infinite monkey theorem.

C C Wrote:Maybe that's also another plural significance to the bridge. Justine is first in having tacit "awareness" of the impeding disaster and is haunted or trapped by it -- horse can't cross the bridge, but oblivious Claire can. By the end she has transcended beyond her sister, and thereby could have crossed it by then for a different or the opposite reason of Claire's initial knowledge innocence.

Maybe, but Claire wasn’t able to cross it in the golf cart either. That’s why I thought it was an indication that there would be no escaping it, no more promise land, nor decedents. I’m not sure but I liked it. I might try one of his other films.



On Durer's work, I better just give up because I can't figure that guy out.

The second one from the Encylopedia of the Brethren of Purity is very similar to Durer’s magic square. I was searching to see if he had any Arabic paintings and stumbled onto this article. It points to the 5/6 and the odd nine but the explanation is beyond me.

Even his signatures are perplexing.



Faciebat is easy but what in the heck does Noricus mean?

Thanks for the info, C C!

(May 11, 2020 09:31 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]

(May 11, 2020 07:08 PM)C C Wrote: [ -> ]Justine and Claire seem to psychologically go in opposite directions as the movie progresses. Like this (another coincidence in terms of posting it before watching the movie), Justine comes to terms with death after being disturbed in the beginning, and speaks her mind to Jack and does unbridled things she was arguably stifled to do beforehand.

Yeah, I read that. I liked it and that always happens to me, too. I just chalk it up to something similar to the infinite monkey theorem.

C C Wrote:Maybe that's also another plural significance to the bridge. Justine is first in having tacit "awareness" of the impeding disaster and is haunted or trapped by it -- horse can't cross the bridge, but oblivious Claire can. By the end she has transcended beyond her sister, and thereby could have crossed it by then for a different or the opposite reason of Claire's initial knowledge innocence

Maybe, but Claire wasn’t able to cross it in the golf cart either. That’s why I thought it was an indication that there would be no escaping it, no more promise land, nor decedents. I’m not sure but I liked it. I might try one of his other films.

By then Claire was mentally becoming like Justine in the beginning, though, with knowledge of the approaching planet and similarly trapped in the horror and depression of it. Claire seemed to be presented as the supposedly stable sister in the beginning, but purely due to her ignorance of what was going on. She grew in apprehension, panic, and went to pieces as the "truth" became more and more apparent. Whereas Justine was shifting from madness-like behavior to like ascending to another level in terms of dealing with it psychologically.

Quote:On Durer's work, I better just give up because I can't figure that guy out. [...] I was searching to see if he had any Arabic paintings and stumbled onto this article. It points to the 5/6 and the odd nine but the explanation is beyond me. [...]

[...] Moreover, – and now for us this is the most important point – initially the characters, which later began to be recorded numbers 5 and 6, had a different meaning: the number 5 at the beginning marked the six, and the number 6 – on the contrary, the top five.

[...] ”This engraving depicts the so-called “magic square,” that is, a square table filled with different numbers in such a way that the sum of the numbers in each row, each column, and on both diagonals is the same (and, in this case, is thirty-four). But, looking closely at these numbers, it is easy to see that the number five in the first column of the second row (which should stand here to make the square “magic”) was drawn (more precisely, cut out on an engraving board) over the sixes that were originally located here.

So the suggestion is that the five was later cut over the original six (by someone else?) because the two symbols had flip-flopped in meaning? You're right, it's kind of difficult to be certain what the author is saying in places ("over the sixes" -- plural???)

(May 11, 2020 09:31 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ][...] Even his signatures are perplexing.



Faciebat is easy but what in the heck does Noricus mean?

That was Nuremberg back then? Sheesh.

English was a pain, too. I remember the nightmare of going through George Berkeley's "tar water" book and having to convert all the "long-s" stuff (ʃ) in passages to the modern version.

[EDIT] Finally some clarity: "Even in the 18th century this was believed, and people held firmly to the opinion that the two weather worn figures on the east side of the tower, which probably represent the Emperor Henry II. and his wife Cunigunda, were statues of Hercules and his fabled son Noricus. [...] The name of Noricus furnished a convenient derivation of the name Nuremberg. The proper derivation, in spite of many most ingenious guesses, is not definitely settled even now." --Nuremberg and Its Art to the End of the 18th Century ... page 5 ... Paul Johannes Rée

[EDIT#2 ADDITION] The Hidden Secrets in Albrecht Dürer's Art and Life - Adam & Eva Part-4: Next, the word “Noricus” has always been translated as Nuremberg. There have been some other speculations that it is a Latinized version of an area called Norix, supposedly associated with Hercules, and it has also been speculated that Noricus stands for the Roman version of Nuremberg’s name. Actually nothing is known of Nuremburg’s ancient history that is provable. To the humanists, classical or at least tribal Germanic foundation was axiomatic: a roman fort built on the rock by Tiberius Claudius Nero, hence Norenberg; a settlement established by one Norik or Noricus, an alleged son of Hercules; an asylum built by the Mariscia or Noriker, a Celtic tribe uprooted by Huns. The root word Noric has been variously identified as Slavic, Celtic, and Germanic. The most likely explanations of the name Nuremberg derive from Germanic Nurung, cleared land, thus Nereberg, cleared mountain or from Nuoringberg, a sacred mountain, a place consecrated to Odin in Germanic times.

(May 11, 2020 07:08 PM)C C Wrote: [ -> ]Speaking of paintings (but also why bother since it's needless to say turf?), "Ophelia" surely being behind Melancholia's movie poster. But I don't feel that Justine is really the one who drowns in the end (more on that below). OTOH,  if it is an alt-option of "floating calmly down the river" to the end, then that does apply.

Justine and Claire seem to psychologically go in opposite directions as the movie progresses. Like this (another coincidence in terms of posting it before watching the movie), Justine comes to terms with death after being disturbed in the beginning, and speaks her mind to Jack and does unbridled things she was arguably stifled to do beforehand.

Maybe that's also another plural significance to the bridge. Justine is first in having tacit "awareness" of the impeding disaster and is haunted or trapped by it -- horse can't cross the bridge, but oblivious Claire can. By the end she has transcended beyond her sister, and thereby could have crossed it by then for a different or the opposite reason of Claire's initial knowledge innocence.

Justine (paraphrasing bits): "The Earth is evil and we don't need to grieve for it. [...] When I say we're alone, we're alone. Life is only on Earth, and not for long [...] I just know things."

I guess Bruegel's "The Land of Cockaigne" appears in Melancholia, too, But I missed that along with probably several other items -- was interrupted and distracted by assorted household interference the whole time I watched it. "... it is a land of contraries, where all the restrictions of society are defied (abbots beaten by their monks), sexual liberty is open (nuns flipped over to show their bottoms), and food is plentiful (skies that rain cheese). "

Secular Sanity Wrote:Maybe, but Claire wasn’t able to cross it in the golf cart either. That’s why I thought it was an indication that there would be no escaping it, no more promise land, nor decedents.

C C Wrote:By then Claire was mentally becoming like Justine in the beginning, though, with knowledge of the approaching planet and similarly trapped in the horror and depression of it. Claire seemed to be presented as the supposedly stable sister in the beginning, but purely due to her ignorance of what was going on. She grew in apprehension, panic, and went to pieces as the "truth" became more and more apparent. Whereas Justine was shifting from madness-like behavior to like ascending to another level in terms of dealing with it psychologically.

She removes all the pieces that represent things and replaces them with humanistic depression art. I’m not too familiar with Heidegger but the thing is, Claire is compliant and complacent, while Justine is more egocentric. Claire doesn’t lose it until she realizes what will happen and even Lars himself said that she’s upset because she has skin in the game. She has a child.

It reminds me of how Nietzsche justifies suffering and uses "Woman" to represent life.

He admits that Rée would be a better friend than he. He defines work as "a painful means to existence." My work! My work! 

Quote:Unrequited love has long been depicted as noble, an unselfish and stoic willingness to accept suffering. Literary and artistic depictions of unrequited love may depend on assumptions of social distance that have less relevance in western, democratic societies with relatively high social mobility and less rigid codes of sexual fidelity. Nonetheless, the literary record suggests a degree of euphoria in the feelings associated with unrequited love, which has the advantage as well of carrying none of the responsibilities of mutual relationships: certainly, rejection, apparent or real, may be the catalyst for inspired literary creation... 'the poetry of frustration'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrequited...Advantages

Ophelia is described as someone who has lived a life awaiting happiness, only to find her destiny on the verge of death. Similar perhaps, to most people who suffer from depression.

I can't help but wonder if Justine is calm at the end and even smiles when the ashes are falling because of her nihilistic tendencies. Death, Nothingness, The Void: her idealistic unattainable love is coming to fruition.

Maybe the uncrossable bridge represents the narrow gate of life itself. I don’t know. It’s hard for me to say. You could be right because he does say that the film is about him and how he sees himself in both sisters. A lot of people thought the uncrossable bridge represented capitalism.

Quote:There’s nobody around, aside from a few highly privileged white people; the other Ninety-Nine Percent might as well not even exist. John’s estate is difficult of access, and also difficult to get away from. Early in the movie, a limousine carrying Justine and her new husband Michael (Alexander Starsgård) is too long to negotiate the hairpin turns of the road that leads to the house. They end up two hours late to their own wedding reception. This failed penetration is, of course, a harbinger of things to come. But later, on two occasions when the sisters go horseback riding, Justine’s horse Abraham repeatedly balks and refuses to cross the bridge that would take him beyond the boundary of John’s lands. And towards the end of the film, Claire finds herself unable to flee the estate — there is literally no place else for her to go. The world of Melancholia is a tiny, self-enclosed microcosm of Western white bourgeois privilege; and this microcosm is what gets destroyed at the end.”
https://reframe.sussex.ac.uk/sequence/fi...haviro.pdf

C C Wrote:That was Nuremberg back then? Sheesh.

That's what's confusing to me because he has other similar signs with different locations, as well. My best guess would be Noricum. That's the only place I can find the actual term, e.g., Noric sword (Noricus ensis). His father wasn’t from Nuremberg. Maybe his lineage was from Noricvm.