Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

(Dec 3, 2018 01:16 AM)confused2 Wrote: [ -> ]I'd be perfectly happy being a noble savage for six days a week but on the seventh I'd want an internet connection.

I have a bit of a 'view' about this, as well. I'm not sure it is a moral 'view' - just a 'view'. It, too, starts with man. Wink

(Nov 28, 2018 08:51 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]There is no such thing as American colonization. American is obviously exceptional, and many level-headed missionaries do a lot to help the people they minister to.

I didn't say American colonization. How 'bout Christian colonization? There’s commonalities, that’s for sure, e.g., noble savages, conversion to "our way of life", gifts—trinkets, food, etc. Years ago, someone even brought them a pig but they killed it and buried it. Some of these so-called peace offerings could mess up the delicate balance of their ecosystem.

If one these nuts showed up on my island singing hymns, I’d be afraid, too.

"Lord, is this island Satan’s last stronghold where none have heard or even had the chance to hear your name?"—John Chau

Satan’s last stronghold? WTF? How ridiculous.

Quote:…This murder comes at a time when Indian Christians report ever escalating levels of persecution across the country.

…William Stark, ICC’s Regional Manager, said, “We here at International Christian Concern are extremely concerned by the reports of an American missionary being murdered in India’s Andaman and Nicobar Islands. Our thoughts and prayers go out to both John’s family and friends. Every day, new reports of persecution are being documented in India. Many Christians fear this may be the new normal for their community as Hindu radicals and others have been allowed to attack Christians and other minority communities with impunity. India must take steps to counter the growing wave of intolerance and violence.”
https://www.persecution.org/2018/11/20/a...ibe-india/

Persecution? How would they have even known that he was a Christian? Murder? Don’t they have the right to defend themselves?

Quote:…How is God working to reveal his glory to the Sentinelese people? Could he bring them forgiveness for their murder and freedom from their own pain?

…We cannot know for sure what God is doing. But might he be stoking the hearts of his church with a fresh fire to reach the unreached peoples of the world? Could God be using the death of John Chau to stir the souls of more missionaries to take the good news of Jesus to the Sentinelese people? Could he be stirring you?
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/wha...ans-arrows

I had never even heard of them before, and now thanks to this so-called martyr, the whole world is curious.

"Respect means we don’t assume to know better how they should live."—John Bodley

(Dec 4, 2018 03:38 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]
(Nov 28, 2018 08:51 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]There is no such thing as American colonization. American is obviously exceptional, and many level-headed missionaries do a lot to help the people they minister to.

I didn't say American colonization. How 'bout Christian colonization? There’s commonalities, that’s for sure, e.g., noble savages, conversion to "our way of life", gifts—trinkets, food, etc. Years ago, someone even brought them a pig but they killed it and buried it. Some of these so-called peace offerings could mess up the delicate balance of their ecosystem.

(Nov 28, 2018 07:29 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]Is it American exceptionalism, colonization, or just plain ole idiot compassion?

Without a new qualifier, that reads as "American exceptionalism or American colonization", as colonization is someone establishing control, and you didn't mention any other candidate there. Nor do Christian missionaries seek to establish control over any people or area. Now you could call is Christian civilization, as they do seek to "bring (a place or people) to a stage of social, cultural, and moral development considered to be more advanced", including often establishing schools, teaching farming,

Quote:
"Lord, is this island Satan’s last stronghold where none have heard or even had the chance to hear your name?"—John Chau

Satan’s last stronghold? WTF? How ridiculous.

Yeah, it's called hubris. And it requires the cherry-picking or misreading of the Bible I mentioned earlier.

Quote:
Quote:…This murder comes at a time when Indian Christians report ever escalating levels of persecution across the country.

…William Stark, ICC’s Regional Manager, said, “We here at International Christian Concern are extremely concerned by the reports of an American missionary being murdered in India’s Andaman and Nicobar Islands. Our thoughts and prayers go out to both John’s family and friends. Every day, new reports of persecution are being documented in India. Many Christians fear this may be the new normal for their community as Hindu radicals and others have been allowed to attack Christians and other minority communities with impunity. India must take steps to counter the growing wave of intolerance and violence.”
https://www.persecution.org/2018/11/20/a...ibe-india/

Persecution? How would they have even known that he was a Christian? Murder? Don’t they have the right to defend themselves?

Defend themselves from an unarmed kid with lethal force? Dodgy

Anti-Christian violence in India refers to religiously-motivated violence against Christians in India. Violence against Christians has been seen by the organization Human Rights Watch as a tactic used to meet political ends. The acts of violence include arson of churches, conversion of Christians by force and threats of physical violence, sexual assaults, murder of Christian priests and destruction of Christian schools, colleges, and cemeteries.

In August 2017, the US Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) ranked India’s persecution severity at “Tier 2” along with Iraq and Afghanistan. In the past six years, India has risen from No. 31 to No. 11 on Open Doors' World Watch List, ranking just behind Iran in persecution severity.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_a...s_in_India

Your cited article doesn't seem to directly call his murder persecution...only placing it within the context of an increasing trend of Christian persecution in India.

(Dec 4, 2018 06:37 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]Nor do Christian missionaries seek to establish control over any people or area.

Oh, my god! Are kidding me? They do seek to control not only people but nations. How many times have we heard that this is a Christian nation?

Syne Wrote:Defend themselves from an unarmed kid with lethal force?

Well, if you've read the history, you'd know that they have no reason to trust outsiders. They're not bound by our laws. He was trespassing and he knew it was illegal and dangerous.

"Syne\ Wrote:Your cited article doesn't seem to directly call his murder persecution...only placing it within the context of an increasing trend of Christian persecution in India.

Nope. They definitely tied his story to their persecution. Here’s what they said.

"We here at International Christian Concern are extremely concerned by the reports of an American missionary being murdered in India’s Andaman and Nicobar Islands. Our thoughts and prayers go out to both John’s family and friends. Every day, new reports of persecution are being documented in India. Many Christians fear this may be the new normal for their community as Hindu radicals and others have been allowed to attack Christians and other minority communities with impunity. India must take steps to counter the growing wave of intolerance and violence."

They’re also calling for a full investigation and those responsible for his murder to be brought to justice.

Crazy Christians! Dodgy

Well, my little Christian apologist, you can always fall back on the insanity plea. That's you're only reasonable defense, you know.

(Dec 4, 2018 07:48 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]
(Dec 4, 2018 06:37 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]Nor do Christian missionaries seek to establish control over any people or area.

Oh, my god! Are kidding me? They do seek to control not only people but nations. How many times have we heard that this is a Christian nation?

This nation was founded by Christians. IOW, they had control from its inception, just like any people who found a nation. Rolleyes

Quote:
Syne Wrote:Defend themselves from an unarmed kid with lethal force?

Well, if you've read the history, you'd know that they have no reason to trust outsiders. They're not bound by our laws. He was trespassing and he knew it was illegal and dangerous.

And? Where have I disagreed with any of that? O_o
None of that justifies it as a threat warranting death. For example, you don't have the natural right to kill someone just because someone else once threatened you. It just doesn't follow.

Quote:
"Syne\ Wrote:Your cited article doesn't seem to directly call his murder persecution...only placing it within the context of an increasing trend of Christian persecution in India.

Nope. They definitely tied his story to their persecution. Here’s what they said.

"We here at International Christian Concern are extremely concerned by the reports of an American missionary being murdered in India’s Andaman and Nicobar Islands. Our thoughts and prayers go out to both John’s family and friends. Every day, new reports of persecution are being documented in India. Many Christians fear this may be the new normal for their community as Hindu radicals and others have been allowed to attack Christians and other minority communities with impunity. India must take steps to counter the growing wave of intolerance and violence."

They’re also calling for a full investigation and those responsible for his murder to be brought to justice.

Your reading comprehension seems suspect there.

It seems to be saying that the nonchalance of the Indian officials is a symptom of the permissiveness of actual persecution of Christians in India. Because that doesn't actually say his death was persecution.
That article also doesn't mention responsibility, an investigation, or justice. Dodgy

Quote:Well, my little Christian apologist, you can always fall back on the insanity plea. That's you're only reasonable defense, you know.

That doesn't follow either. Even if you assume all Christians are insane, a gross generalization, I would have to believe it to fall under that umbrella.
Your reasoning skills are definitely impaired on the subject of religion, if not in general.

Syne Wrote:This nation was founded by Christians. IOW, they had control from its inception, just like any people who found a nation.

I'm not sure the Native Americans would see it that way - a nation founded by christians (?) - a nation invaded by christains perhaps - what do they actually say? Is it your (Syne) belief that a Christian 'invasion'(?) would be of more (or less) benefit to the Andaman Islanders than it has been to the Native Americans.

50 years after the invasion - Unilever owns most of the land, the natives have mostly died of diseases to which they had no immunity - any remaining population live in houses built for them in the few remaining areas of forest ('reserves').

When Germany wanted to invade England we didn't do the Christian thing - we shot at them and killed their soldiers. Looks like God must have been on our side - also the US which probably helped rather more - was god on the side of the US too? - makes sense for God to be on the US side if the US was founded by christians - rather less sense if the US has a rather murky past involving slavery, (self) deception and genocide.

"Lord, is this island Satan’s last stronghold where none have heard or even had the chance to hear your name?"—John Chau

Might sound OK to a bunch of christains - anywhere else it sounds like pure insanity.

https://www.history.com/news/native-amer...ted-states:-

Quote:From the time Europeans arrived on American shores, the frontier—the edge territory between white man’s civilization and the untamed natural world—became a shared space of vast, clashing differences that led the U.S. government to authorize over 1,500 wars, attacks and raids on Indians, the most of any country in the world against its indigenous people. By the close of the Indian Wars in the late 19th century, fewer than 238,000 indigenous people remained, a sharp decline from the estimated 5 million to 15 million living in North America when Columbus arrived in 1492.

https://www.history.com/news/native-amer...ted-states:-

(Dec 4, 2018 10:08 PM)confused2 Wrote: [ -> ]
Syne Wrote:This nation was founded by Christians. IOW, they had control from its inception, just like any people who found a nation.
I'm not sure the Native Americans would see it that way - a nation founded by christians (?) - a nation invaded by christains perhaps - what do they actually say? Is it your (Syne) belief that a Christian 'invasion'(?) would be of more (or less) benefit to the Andaman Islanders than it has been to the Native Americans.

There was no "nation" before Europeans settled and founded the US, as Native Americans had no concept of land ownership nor national sovereignty. They did seek to control territory and tribes often cooperated to fight off smaller tribes, but that only means that the American territory was in dispute. It was not a settled nation by any definition, and opposing tribes were just as much an invasion force as any Europeans.

Since the Indian government already has sovereignty over the Andaman islands, that would be a different matter altogether. Illegal access would be equivalent to an illegal border crossing in any country, and leftists seem to have become squeamish about calling that an "invasion" in the US.

Quote:When Germany wanted to invade England we didn't do the Christian thing - we shot at them and killed their soldiers. Looks like God must have been on our side - also the US which probably helped rather more - was god on the side of the US too? - makes sense for God to be on the US side if the US was founded by christians - rather less sense if the US has a rather murky past involving slavery, (self) deception and genocide.

England was a sovereign nation, slavery use to be a world-wide norm (not unique to the US), and incidental inflection and fighting tribes already prone to internecine warfare.

Quote:"Lord, is this island Satan’s last stronghold where none have heard or even had the chance to hear your name?"—John Chau

Might sound OK to a bunch of christains - anywhere else it sounds like pure insanity.

No, most Christians don't have any sympathy for Chau either. But it seems to be a popular straw man for the anti-religious.

Quote:
https://www.history.com/news/native-amer...ted-states:-

Quote:From the time Europeans arrived on American shores, the frontier—the edge territory between white man’s civilization and the untamed natural world—became a shared space of vast, clashing differences that led the U.S. government to authorize over 1,500 wars, attacks and raids on Indians, the most of any country in the world against its indigenous people. By the close of the Indian Wars in the late 19th century, fewer than 238,000 indigenous people remained, a sharp decline from the estimated 5 million to 15 million living in North America when Columbus arrived in 1492.

https://www.history.com/news/native-amer...ted-states:-

That's overly simplistic. It ignores that the Algonquian allied with the French against the Iroquois, the 1622 Jamestown Massacre, large-scale attack by the Susquehannocks, and often just European rivalries with Native Americans splitting their allegiances, like the British arming the Indians to fight on their side and who were subsequently defeated in battle.

Can you just imagine the conversation? How in the hell would we explain our concepts of happiness, immortality, a god, and even our hierarchical systems without sounding like complete fools?

Funny thing is, though, my son, who is currently defending our territory, gets to come home to celebrate the immaculate conception of our god. So, I’m heading out in the pouring rain to go shopping. I’m going to purchase things that we really don’t need because that’s what us "normal" people do during the holiday season. I’ll enjoy it, though, because I’m creating togetherness. And, after all, abuse does not take away use…

Ciao

(Dec 5, 2018 05:00 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]Can you just imagine the conversation? How in the hell would we explain our concepts of happiness, immortality, a god, and even our hierarchical systems without sounding like complete fools?

Hello. I love you and Jesus loves you.
(Why do you love me and who’s Jesus?)
He’s our god who will watch over you, and if you love him with all your heart, you’ll become immortal, and you’ll reside with him forever and ever. You will no longer have to fear death.
(We don’t fear death.)
But if you come with me, I’ll help you get a job, and if you work hard you can buy a big house, a car, and designer clothing. If you have all these things, people will love you, too. If you work really hard, you can afford to take a vacation to an exotic island.
(We work hard. We don’t need a car. We build our own houses and we make our own cloths. We have people who love us and we live on an exotic island.)
But if you join our church, you’ll be saved.
(Saved from what?)
From death, but you have to believe in his son because you’re a bad person. You were born a sinner because your ancestors ate some forbidden fruit that created death itself.
(Was the fruit poisonous? Did they die?)
It wasn’t poisonous but Adam died when he was 130 years old.
(*Laughter* did he believe in your god?)
Of course, he walked with god in the Garden of Eden.
(Why did he die if he believed in your god?)
Because he ate the forbidden fruit.
(Have you seen a man that hasn’t died?)
Yes, Jesus Christ. He died but he came back to life.
(Where is he?)
He’s in heaven.
(With your god?)
No, not exactly. He is god.
(So, your god died?)
Yes, but he came back to life.
(Where is he?)
He’s everywhere. You just can’t see him.
(*Laughter/Arrows drawn)
Wait! What are you doing?
(Where going to watch you come back to life.)

You sure do like to make up fanciful straw men. As if anything even remotely approaching that exchange has ever occurred, completely ignoring a very long history of successful missionaries. Not to mention that the concepts of happiness, immortality, god, and hierarchies are all universal human notions that have independently arisen in almost every culture.

Quote:Funny thing is, though, my son, who is currently defending our territory, gets to come home to celebrate the immaculate conception of our god. So, I’m heading out in the pouring rain to go shopping. I’m going to purchase things that we really don’t need because that’s what us "normal" people do during the holiday season. I’ll enjoy it, though, because I’m creating togetherness. And, after all, abuse does not take away use…
"Fantasy can, of course, be carried to excess. It can be ill done. It can be put to evil uses. It may even delude the minds out of which it came. But of what human thing in this fallen world is that not true? Men have conceived not only of elves, but they have imagined gods, and worshiped them, even worshiped those most deformed by their authors' own evil. But they have made false gods out of other materials: their notions, their banners, their monies; even their sciences and their social and economic theories have demanded human sacrifice. Abuse does not take away use. Fantasy remains a human right."— Tolkien

Ciao

It's a celebration of birth, not conception. Rolleyes

It's sad that you have to make up excuses to enjoy something. Especially when it already has significance....even if just the secular joy of the season of giving.

(Dec 5, 2018 05:19 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]You sure do like to make up fanciful straw men. As if anything even remotely approaching that exchange has ever occurred, completely ignoring a very long history of successful missionaries.

A similar conversation did take place. I mentioned it earlier.

But you're right. The mission was very successful. Big Grin

Syne Wrote:It's a celebration of birth, not conception.

Well, you got the point. Besides, it’s one of the central tenets, too, right? Is the virgin birth a deal-breaker? I mean, it was God, for goodness sake. A supernatural deity should be able to enter into a world that he created in any manner that he wants, right?

Syne Wrote:It's sad that you have to make up excuses to enjoy something. Especially when it already has significance....even if just the secular joy of the season of giving.

It's sad that you have to have a season to be nice. I'm nice all the time. Wink