(Nov 25, 2018 11:14 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:The word "punish" is nowhere in your link. And who do you think made him a "sacrifice to God"?
He did. He was a voluntary sacrifice to God for our sins. This is all thruout the New Testament.
I already said it was a voluntary sacrifice.
(Nov 24, 2018 07:42 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]Biblical redemption isn't the externally meted punishment of another person; it's the voluntary sacrifice of another as an act of grace.
(Nov 25, 2018 07:59 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]A punishment implies something imposed externally, where Jesus voluntarily sacrificed himself (albeit with last minute misgivings).
But again, considering the trinity, it's meaningless to say he sacrificed himself to himself. It was not to appease a god but to atone for sin, making men compatible and able to commune with the nature of god. It's akin to a karmic debt that must be paid, one way or another, to restore balance.
Quote:Quote:It certainly wasn't the Romans who put him to death, as they didn't believe in the god he taught.
And it doesn't say Jesus was guilty, it says "the guilt of all of it was put upon Him", e.g. "made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf". If you are guilty, you have sinned, you do not personify sin as a symbolic act.
Yeah...when you put the guilt of all on someone, that means they bear the guilt for those sinners. It can't be any clearer than that. He was counted as guilty to atone for the sins of mankind.
LOL! Again, do you think a goat can be made guilty of a human sin?
Quote:That was the plan at least according the Bible. And that's why it doesn't work, because an innocent person cannot be punished in the place of the guilty. It's unjust and actually immoral. It punishes the innocent for something they didn't do and lets the guilty off scott free. But hey..that's what your Christians believe,
Not punished, made a voluntary sacrifice. And that grace is only available to those who genuinely repent and change their behavior. Not scot-free. Just a second chance.
Quote:Here's another Christian website explaining this belief:
https://billygraham.org/decision-magazin...ty-of-sin/
"If Christ is not my substitute, then I still occupy the place of a condemned sinner. If my sins and my guilt are not transferred to Him, and He does not take them, then they remain with me. If He did not deal with my sins, then I must deal with them. If He did not bear my penalty, then I must bear it. There is no other possibility. Either He paid the penalty for my sin or I will pay it in hell forever.
The truth is that in the process of salvation,
God Himself is bearing our sin, for Jesus was God in human flesh. He wills that sin be punished, and He wills to be the victim who bears its punishment."
"transferred to", "take them", "deal with", and "bear my penalty", not "made guilty".
Again, due to the trinity, you're claiming that god could be made guilty.
Quote:Here's another:
https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/w...udge-to-do
"Jesus enters in and he is able to do what no human could do. This is why there is a difference. No human ever could do this in a court of law. He is so perfect and he suffers so much, and his motives are so Godward, that when he dies on the cross, what is manifest is, "Look how valuable the glory of God is!"
If a mom stepped forward in a courtroom and said, "Let me take my son's place. Let me take my son's place, please." We all know that would be unjust. She goes to the electric chair, and this son goes on to sin more.
The two differences are
1. She's not doing that to magnify the worth of the state—God. She's doing it to magnify the worth of her son, and that's not what's happening at the cross.
2. She's freeing the son, untransformed, to go into the world and sin some more.
And those are the very two things that are different about the death of Jesus.
1. Jesus dies not to magnify the sinner's worth, but to magnify God's worth.
2. And he dies and changes those who escape from hell. He doesn't just release more sin upon the world. He puts the Holy Spirit in our lives and begins to transform us into the image of Christ so that we bring more glory to the Father than if we had been left in our sin."
I don't think you even know what point you were trying to make with this link. Probably just an unread Google search result.
Quote:And here's another:
https://ptv.org/devotional/jesus-bore-our-punishment/
Again, you don't even seem to know what point you think this link makes.
Quote:Quote:You actually think a goat can be made guilty of human sins? It's symbolic. A scapegoat only takes on the "burden of sin" not the actual sin itself.
No it wasn't just symbolic. It was a blood sacrifice. The sins were actually thought to be placed on the animal by magic and then slaughtered to please God. That's why it was called a scapegoat too. That's the barbaric nature of religion. The blood was actually thought to have magical cleansing properties. And they believed slaughtering innocent unblemished animals appeased a wrathful deity and ensured their good standing with him.
Not in Judaism.
With few exceptions, korbanot could only be used as a means of atoning for the first type of sin, that is sins committed in ignorance that the thing was a sin. In addition, korbanot have no expiating effect unless the person making the offering sincerely repents his or her actions before making the offering, and makes restitution to any person who was harmed by the violation.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korban#Purpose
Later in the ceremonies of the day, the High Priest confessed the intentional sins of the Israelites to God placing them figuratively on the head of the other goat, the Azazel scapegoat, who would symbolically "take them away".
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat#Ancient_Judaism
So not scot-free and absolutely figurative.